Category Archives: David Camm Analysis

More Closing Arguments

General point that due to the publicity, some witnesses doubted David, leading to arguments.
( Scott Shrank )

One of the core principles of the scientific method is the ability to reproduce results via validly conducted experiments. And notably, since we know have confirmation of blood on the bottom of David’s shoe . . . as many here have postulated, why wasn’t at least some of that “transferred” to his truck IF he “returned” to the gym to continue his B-Ball deception?

Note: is the adverse press coverage from 3rd October in evidence?

Boney’s Parole Officer , will he be a witness? ( see DKE )

We and the jury now know how unfairly David was portrayed in the press on October 3 2000, with David’s aunt (Deborah Van Tee)’s statement about three gunshots being completely reversed.

Michael West, incarcerated with #DavidCamm & Jeremy Bullock–inmate who testified Camm confessed to him.

West is serving life sentence. Tells jury Jeremy Bullock had cell next to him and told him he planned to lie in testimony against #DavidCamm

West: Bullock said he was a cop. He didn’t like cops. “I’ve got 10 more yrs to do. I’ll try anything to get out.”
West denies expecting anything. Says testifying because what Bullock did “isn’t right.” Says lies are reason he’s behind bars.


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There is a significant fact that the prosecution simply ignored – why I’m not sure other than to hypothesize that (a) it was a fact that was inconsistent with David’s guilt; (b) it was a fact that supported Bonehead’s guilt; and more telling, (c) it would have opened the door to Bonehead’s foot fetish even more. BUT, the fact remains, just as the gorilla video is in evidence, so is this.
From the autopsy and ME’s testimony, injuries to Kim’s feet:

• top of right 3rd toe

• top of right 4th toe
• top of right foot
• top of left 5th toe
• top of left 2nd toe
• top of left great toe
• top of left foot
“Of particular interest was the fact that the tops of both feet had bruising and cuts worse then any other injury other than the gunshot wound itself. It was as though her feet and toes, which had chipped, partial nail polish, had themselves been a target of the assailant’s attack, possibly by being stomped with a hard sole shoe. As with a lot of other evidence, however, the attacks on her feet were ignored and the injuries were dismissed as irrelevant.”
And I’m quite sure that there are plenty of photos in evidence that show Kim’s bare feet.
So, Mr. Levco:
– Where are her socks?
– How did her feet get so injured?
– Aren’t those injuries consistent with a large, bulky man such as Bonehead standing on her feet to keep her from kneeing him in the balls as he’s trying to pull off her panties?
– Are we supposed to believe that Bonehead’s crazy story that he heard David and Kim arguing and then, Bam, Bam and Bam as he executed his wife and two kids and THEN went and stomped on Kim’s feet?
– But, how could he do that with her feet under the Bronco?
– You can’t make those injuries go away and you can’t expect this jury to ignore an obvious and undisputed fact!
– Those injuries are the pink elephant here!
– You can run from that elephant, but you can’t hide – your own witnesses, your own photographic evidence gave that elephant to this jury.
– You examined David’s shoes in microscopic detail.
– You examined David’s shoes in molecular detail!
– You expect this jury to believe that David’s gym shoes caused those injuries when all the investigators had to do was look at the soles of those shoes – rubber basketball shoes!
– No, those injuries were caused by shoes worn by a large heavy pink elephant whose name is Charles D. Bonehead – that’s the ONLY conclusion YOUR evidence can lead any rational juror to conclude.

To rebut any suggestion that Boney acting alone is puzzling

“You do not have to understand how or why Charles Boney acted as he did. There are aspects of his past, and his past crimes, that you may not be aware of. There are aspects of human behaviour you may not be fully familiar with. But you do know that Charles Boney is a liar and a criminal. Please apply what you do know about violent criminals.”

Good Closing Arguments


Why would anyone murder their own children? This can happen at the end of a long, bitter divorce as a final insane act of revenge due to feelings of betrayal, “If I cannot have you, nobody will”. It does not happen with normal sane people leading a happy family life. Do you have children? Is it possible that you would kill your own children? Of course not, that is the act of someone driven mad by betrayal. And consider that this act cannot have been the result of a sudden argument or fit of temper, the state alleges that the act was planned some considerable time in advance. David was earning good money, enjoying life after leaving police, spending more time with his family, having the best days of his life.

Ask yourself, who might have committed this terrible crime?

  • David Camm, a hard working family man, an honest, trusted member of the community, an ex State Trooper?


  • Charles Boney, a career criminal, used to taking women hostage using a gun, with a string of felonies and time in jail behind him?

Who is the more likely suspect here? Who might be capable of shooting a mother and two children?
Surely Charles Boney. To conclude otherwise, there must be incontrovertible evidence.


Blood spatter analysis is mostly common sense, and elementary physics. But be careful! Don’t trust experts too much.
RIchard Feynmann, the greatest US scientist who ever lived, said “Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.”
Ladies and gentlemen, THAT is true science!
Do not take the expert’s word as gospel truth, consider for yourself how sure an expert can be of his opinion.
Different theories may be consistent with the evidence, do not consider just one theory to the exclusion of others.
When experts disagree, you may wish to consider their credibility, their academic record and education.
When experts disagree, you must consider the alternative possibilities.

The evidence against David

The tiny collection of dots of blood, alleged to be high velocity blood spatter by the prosecution, and transfer by the defense.
But in fact
“presumptive tests used to detect whether the dots could have been blood could have pushed the dried droplets deeper into the T-shirt.”
This cannot be ruled out, so we must treat the HVIS hypothesis as just one possibility.
The man at the scene initially (Stites) said he was “90% sure it was HVIS”. Well, there are other possibilities.
Later Mr Stites said he was 100% certain. Anyone who says they are 100% sure of the interpretation on the basis of no clear reasoning, should be regarded as suspect.

Recall the testimony of Mr Englert: “I remember telling Mr. Stites, ‘Do not give any opinions, just keep your mouth shut!'”

Recall that Mr. Englert testified that Mr. Stites “went overboard.”

Why would you believe Charles Boney?

He is a serial liar, his story was coached, he is a career criminal, he has a long criminal record.
Every time his story proved false, he changed it, with help from prosecutors intent on maintaining David’s conviction.
Mr. Boney’s tale has been cooked up over a long period of time, and it still makes no sense, as you will soon see.

Back on the streets?

Charles Boney was trying to avoid the death penalty, now he has delusions that you will believe his story and he will get a retrial.
Do you want to see Mr Boney back on streets again? Will your wives and daughters be safe?
Carrying on his trade in guns, with his backpack full of them (assuming he even told the truth about being a gun dealer).

What proof is there that his stories are true?

Charles Boney claims to have met David on several occasions, in public places.
But not one shred of evidence has been advanced to substantiate these improbable claims.
Not one player at the alleged basketball game has testified to David or Charles’ presence.
The prosecution have not even established Charles Boney ever played basketball at all.
Not one witness has been produced who ever saw Charles play basketball, arranged a game, or participated in any way.
Not one person saw either of them meeting.
Contrast that to David Camm’s alibi!

Changing stories

( )
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How could they have met that night

Mr Boney testified to you that he ‘couldn’t remember’ how he agreed to meet David, when and where, as they never talked by phone.
Is this credible? Did David and Mr Boney communicate by telepathy?

Patsy theory – just suppose

If David was going to frame Charles Boney as a Patsy:
(1) He would invite Charles into the garage.
(2) He would then use his own legal weapon to shoot Charles ( or kill him in some other way )
(3) He would then shoot his family with the gun Charles had, and place it in his hand.
(4) Then call the cops, saying he caught Boney murdering his family and shot him ( or killed him in some other way ).

However David never had his own legal gun (ToDo:is that in evidence), so he could never have entertained a “Patsy” plot using a gun to kill Boney.
Killing Boney with an illegal gun could not be explained : how or why could David explain his possession of an illegal gun?
The Patsy theory is not compatible with Charles Boney’s testimony.

Or could David not have intended to kill Charles Boney? No : that would be David Camm inviting Boney to witness him executing his family, and then hoping that Charles Boney will accept the death penalty and keep quiet about what he witnessed. That makes no sense at all.

Why would Charles lie, why the difficulty concocting the story?

If we suppose Charles Boney only supplied the gun, or two guns, the moment Charles admitted his involvement, his sole aim would be to place the blame on David as the shooter.
All he has to do is to tell the truth, and he is saved.
But instead he tells an impossible story that cannot be the truth.
And he has to keep changing his story.
The conclusion is that his story is an invention, Charles Boney murdered David Camm’s family, David was playing basketball.

At the scene : brave Charles

Returning to Charles’s story, when Charles Boney hears David shooting his family why does he not run away?
Even more so after David has tried to shoot him?
And what is the chance of the gun jamming? Really?

Boney gave testimony that either “it jammed or he ran out of bullets”.
He supposedly heard the shots. Boney says he loaded the weapon…so why doesn’t he know if it ran out of bullets?

It takes seconds to fix a gun that jams–hence no reason to run back in the house to get another gun.

And then when he runs, he says he trips, stops, and places Kim Camm’s shoes on top of the Bronco.
Why? Is this credible? Surely it is not.
It is surely a concoction devised to get Charles out of a hole, or rather a noose.

And why would David want a second gun anyway?
Why isn’t Charles Boney suspicious about this?

None of this makes sense!

Hard evidence contradicts Charles story

69 particles of gunshot residue on the gray sweatshirt (tied to Charles Boney), strongly suggests Charles Boney fired the gun.
Boney’s DNA was found near the cuff of Kimberly Camm’s shirt, on the stomach area of 5-year-old Jill Camm, Kimberly and David Camm’s daughter, and on two places on Kim Camm’s underwear.

The snitches

ToDo : but Bullock was clearly a boost to the defense : his testimony is not consistent with the prosecution case and Boney’s testimony.

Three trials

The defense case is that the investigation was bungled from the start, with a rush to judgement.

Again, recall the testimony of Mr Englert: “I remember telling Mr. Stites, ‘Do not give any opinions, just keep your mouth shut!'”
Recall that Mr. Englert testified that Mr. Stites “went overboard.”

Important evidence was destroyed, not tested properly or when tested, not processed to see if it matched database records.
Any element that did not support the prosecution of David Camm was ignored.
Improper arguments by the state, desperate to obtain a conviction, have resulted in reversed convictions.
Ever since David was arrested, the prosecution has attempted to defend an untenable and improbable position, against all reason.

When you are deliberating

Use your common sense, do not put too much weight on any single piece of evidence.
Consider ALL the evidence. Consider whether the state’s theory makes sense, does it have logical flaws, improbabilities.
Also consider the defense case. Has the defense given a plausible alternative account of events?
Which case is compatible with ALL the evidence, is the defense case possible?

Consider whether the suggested actions of David Camm and Charles Boney are logical or even possible.
If you do not understand, think again, use your collective reason to understand the evidence, and form a coherent consistent explanation.
If there is no explanation, or you feel puzzled, that constitutes doubt.

If after deliberating with care, and considering ALL the evidence, you have a reasonable doubt that David murdered his own family, you MUST acquit.

A version of this article was published at GroundReport

See also More closing arguments

Further Observations

Recent news:

Adam Lane wrote:

“Hard science (touch DNA) and a church full of eyewitnesses vs. junk science (BPA) and prison snitches. The David Camm case in a nutshell.”

Closing arguments

Please see Good closing arguments for my collection of defense arguments.

More nonsense

The prosecution case is senseless. It has David Camm inviting Boney to witness him executing his family, and then hoping that Charles Boney will accept the death penalty and keep quiet about what he witnessed. That makes no sense at all.

Chatting to a reporter about phones in court:

Did Charles Boney know Kim Camm?

To be investigated:
“Didn’t Charles live less than a block from Kim from the time he was 10 or so? The name Darnell is reserved for only Charles Boney’s closest of friends, according to him, and then Frank calls him Darnell, how convenient”

*He lived off Gary Drive near Kim they rode the school bus together growing up.”


Charles Boney and domestic violence

I don’t believe in “monsters”, every human has a history that accounts for behaviour, almost every human has the capacity for redemption.
But on September 28 2000, Charles Boney, at that moment in time, was a monster.
He abused his own partner1, he abused many women2, he abused and murdered David Camm’s family.

1 “Boney beat her, threatened her life, and used a stun gun on her” Wikipedia
2 Boney violently attacked five young women, stealing shoes. He took young women hostage on three occasions, in two cases, he used a gun. 1 Aug 2013
Richard Eikelenboom, who owns Independent Forensic Services, said that Boney’s DNA was found near the cuff of Kimberly Camm’s shirt, on the stomach area of 5-year-old Jill Camm, Kimberly and David Camm’s daughter, and on two places on Kim Camm’s underwear.


Ask yourself this. Even supposing David Camm had some motive to kill his family (incredibly unlikely – no evidence of depression – and in marriage break-up murder cases, there is always a long escalation of stalking). Would he risk involving a known criminal, such as Charles Boney and come up with such a hare-brained, risky scheme of trying to sneak out of a gym session, and hope not to be observed? This makes absolutely no sense, it’s nonsense. The case is simple: Charles Boney murdered David Camm’s family, the police botched the investigation.

Other views
“Enough is enough in my view, and it is time to move on.” Attorney Patrick Renn represented Camm’s co-defendant Charles Boney, so his take on what should happen might surprise you: “My personal hope is that the prosecutor, Mr. Henderson, will not re-try the case, will go ahead and dismiss the charges and that David Camm then would be released.” Posted August 19.
Interview with Frank, Janice Remm. I’m so sad they have been taken in by prosecutors. I hope they will come to see the truth in this trial.
The consequences of prosecutorial misconduct, incompetent investigations are so awful.


Observing events from a distance, I see a very familiar pattern. Investigators making mistakes, use of evidence that has no objective value, “professional” expert witnesses over-stating the strength of evidence with no scientific basis.

Problems with the investigation

This page is for noting issues with the investigation

Currently, it’s just a list with little detail. It’s things the police / prosecution demonstrably got wrong, or improper behavior.

(1) The phone call that was meant to have disproved Camm’s alibi, but which turned out to have been made an hour earlier, consistent with David Camm’s account. From the First Appeal Ruling :
“The States claim in opening argument that Camm made a phone call from his house at 7:19 p.m., which would have refuted the alibi witnesses testimony that he was at the gym at that time, was found to be incorrect upon examination of a Verizon employee who testified that due to a software error concerning Indianas unusual time zones, the call was placed instead at 6:19 p.m., when Camm said he was at home and before he left to play basketball.”

(2) The delay (of five years) in running the DNA found on Boney’s sweatshirt through MODIS. The defence team were told it had been run, but this was a lie.

(3) The treatment of Lynn Scamahorn, a DNA analyst from the Indiana State Police, a university trained scientist who analyzes blood and DNA. She tested all the clothing in the Camm case in both trials.

Scamahorn said (on oath) that when she refused to change her testimony during Camm’s first trial in 2002, Faith was infuriated, screaming at her, and telling her he’d have her fired, and charged with a felony — obstructing justice, if she wasn’t able to find Camm’s DNA. ( ).

This is supported by a memo she wrote just days after the incident ( ).
Note that this was during a break in court hearings where Lynn was giving evidence. It cannot be explained as Faith asking Scamahorn to conduct further tests.
I cannot imagine a more blatant example of a prosecutor attempting to pervert the course of justice. I see no reason to doubt Scamahorn’s account of what happened.

Credibility of Englert

, from a petition :
The main expert used to convict David Camm, Rodney Englert, was also involved in convicting another innocent person, Julie Rea. She was wrongfully convicted in 2002 of stabbing to death her 10 year-old son in Lawrenceville, IL, based on Englert’s testimony. Englert claimed in her case that there was evidence of cast-off stains on Julie’s nightshirt. After her conviction, a serial killer who targeted children by the name of Tommy Lynn Sells confessed to the murder for which Julie had been wrongfully convicted. A Texas Ranger provided an affidavit in support of Julie’s petition to overturn her conviction. She was freed from prison and received a certificate of innocence.

On June 2, 2003, an ethics complaint with the American Academy of Forensic Science was lodged against Englert by a number of other bloodstain experts alleging that Englert misrepresented his education, training and experience. This prompted Englert to sue them for slander. The bloodstain experts who signed the complaint included Herb MacDonell, (who established the professions of blood stain pattern experts in 1971, with the publication of his book “Flight Characteristics and Stain Patterns of Human Blood.”) Stuart James, Terry Laber, and Bart Epstein. MacDonell was also sued for slander for calling Englert among other things “a forensic whore”, “liar-for-hire”, “a very smooth charlatan” and “The Bin Laden of Bloodstains”. All of these bloodstain experts that Englert sued have expressed opinions in support of David Camm’s innocence.

Links regarding the MacDonell slander case:
Ruling 6 July 2010 ( case dismissed on technical grounds )
Appeal ruling 26 May 2011 ( case partly restored, down from 12 statements to 2 emails )
“Accordingly, we affirm the judgment of the district court with respect to 10 of the 12 allegedly defamatory statements, but reverse as to the final two statements – the emails of June 28, 2003, and October 8, 2003 – and remand for further proceedings consistent with this disposition. Each party shall bear his own costs on appeal.”

The Julie Rea Harper Case

Englert testified in both the original and second trial ( where Julie Rea Harper was exonerated ).
Julie Rea
The final blow to Parkinson’s strategy came when the defense successfully objected to the performance planned by Rodney Englert, a “crime-scene reconstructionist” and blood-pattern analyst from Portland, Ore., hired by prosecutors to deliver his expert opinion about the physical evidence. Vaughn ruled that Englert could display a poster showing various types of blood spatter (hair swipe, fabric impression, low velocity, castoff) but that he could not stage a demonstration using fake blood inside the courtroom.

Competence of Robert Stites


See also pages 41-47.

Credibility of Tom Bevel


Charles Boney Interview with Gary Dunn


Table of Contents

Charles Boney Interview with Gary Dunn

Dunn: Yeah, we’re rolling here now. Uh, Charles, my name is Gary Dunn. I just identified myself, did I?
Boney: Yes, sir.
Dunn: O.k. And you’re Charles Boney.
Boney: That’s correct.
Dunn: And you go by Charles rather than Darnell, or both?
Boney: Yeah, I go by Charles.

Your DNA was found

Dunn: O.k. Charles, o.k. the reason you came to our attention was because we found out last week that your DNA was found on a garment found at the crime scene of the murders of Kimberly Camm, Jill Camm and Bradley Camm. You understand that’s the reason that I would like to talk to you today?
Boney: Yes, I do, sir.
Dunn: O.k. Is that fair enough, and I want to ask you some direct, pointed questions about certain things, and you don’t have an issue with that apparently?
Boney: No, sir.
Dunn: O.k. O.k. Good. Uh, if I can, get some background from you, I’ve got a general idea and as you surmised the other night, in our conversation that was Saturday night, and as you knew then, that obviously we have done some background, only a little bit of background up until now, of course, because we didn’t even find out about you until late Friday afternoon. O.k?
Boney: Yes, sir.
Dunn: But anyway, let me if I can, we will start off, get some background, we’ll talk about you know, here in New Albany, going up to I.U., things of that matter. Is that o.k.?
Boney: Yes, sir.
Dunn: Hey, appreciate it. Hey, your date of birth is May thir, what is it, thirteenth of ‘69?
Boney: That is correct, sir.
Dunn: And Charles, where were you born?
Boney: Mount Clemons, Michigan.
Dunn: And how did you wind up down here in New Albany?
Boney: Uh, my mother moved us down here in 1972, I believe.
Dunn: And your mom is Barbara? Is that right?
Boney: That’s correct.
Dunn: And, where did you first reside when you moved down here?
Boney: Specifically?
Dunn: Yeah, do you recall the address, the location?
Boney: Well, when I was 3 years old, we lived on 15th Street, I believe, and then we moved to Gary Drive.
Dunn: O.k. And do you remember when you moved to Gary Drive?
Boney: Hmm, 1974-5.
Dunn: O.k. Is that what 2114?
Boney: 2114 Gary Drive
Dunn: 2114, and that was in 74′ and that is where you went to school? I guess where, Green Valley…or whatever?
Boney: Green Valley Elementary
Dunn: Green Valley, and then Scribner…then New Albany High School?
Boney: That is correct.
Dunn: And you graduated in ..
Boney: 1987
Dunn: 1987, o.k. And may I have your social security number?
Boney: Yes, 316
Dunn: Uh, huh
Boney: 70
Dunn: Yeah
Boney: 3083.

One sister

Dunn: O.k. And do have any brothers or sisters Charles?
Boney: Yes, I have one sister.
Dunn: And may I have her name?
Boney: Her name is Jennifer
Dunn: And her last name?
Boney: Her last name, maiden name, or…
Dunn: Well, her maiden name would be, Bone, is it Boney?
Boney: It would have been Jones.
Dunn: Jones?
Boney: Jennifer Jones.
Dunn: O.k., and what’s her married name?
Boney: Her last name now is Riggs.
Dunn: And she lives here locally?
Boney: Uh, she lives in Louisville. I would like to keep…
Dunn: Yeah, I understand…
Boney: …those individuals….
Dunn: …sure…and, that, that’s understandable. In ‘87 you graduated from New Albany High School.
Boney: That is correct.
Dunn: And you went immediately to Indiana University?
Boney: Yes, I went during the summer session of 1987.
Dunn: O.k. Where did you live out there at I.U.?
Boney: I lived in a dorm, it was called Teter. Teter-Thompson.
Dunn: Yeah, right there on 10th Street?
Boney: That’s correct.
Dunn: O.k., and then uh, did you live there for how long?
Boney: Uh, I guess just a semester, and then I moved from there to Briscoe…Briscoe Quad.
Dunn: O.k., and how long did you live there, buddy?
Boney: To finish out the spring…uh..semester and then I went into the military.
Dunn: O.k., and so that would have been in the, May…’88?.
Boney: May of ‘88. um hmm.

National Guard

Dunn: And then you went into the National Guard, as I recall. Is that correct?
Boney: Yeah, that is correct.
Dunn: Yeah, and was it there in Bloomington, or where?
Boney: I was 3rd of the 321st field artillery in Fort Sill, Oklahoma and then from there I went to Bloomington which was the 2nd of the 150th Headquarters Battery.
Dunn: And that’s right there on South Walnut, right?
Boney: That is correct.
Dunn: Yeah, uh we had an evolution with those guys. Before I assumed this responsibility I was with the FBI for 27 years, I think I told you that the other night.
Boney: Yes, sir.
Dunn: Anyway, we had an occasion to work with those National Guard guys on several occasions. Very, very good people. Very nice people. Very, very helpful, of course, too. Ah, O.k. So, you were at I.U., and this is in, now we’re in ‘88. How long were you on active duty with the guard?
Boney: I was discharged officially, I’m thinking ‘92. That is when I would have been officially discharged, but it could have been late ‘91.
Dunn: O.k. What, what was your MOS?
Boney: 13 Bravo.
Dunn: And what is that?
Boney: Field Artillery.

First felony – shoe bandit

Dunn: O.k. Alright. And then, uh when, when did you first run afoul of the law up there and can you tell me what happened on that?
Boney: I became a felon January the 19th, 1989.
Dunn: What happened there, buddy?
Boney: Umm, I had umm, I had been penned by the newspapers um, they called me the “shoe bandit”. Umm, during the course of what some believed was a fraternity prank, and others had their doubts. I have been accused of maybe just having a shoe fetish or something of that nature. You know, I have tried to defend myself on that, but bottom line is anything that I have ever done, I have never had a jury trial. I just went to court and told the truth. The judge asked me, you know…
Dunn: What were the allegations against you?
Boney: Umm, that shoes were taken off, shoes were taken off young ladies, specifically…
Dunn: Did that, did that happen?
Boney: Yeah, I mean I’m guilty. I did it.
Dunn: Can, can you explain why you would do that? Why you would remove the shoes from young ladies?
Boney: Like I said, it was a fraternity prank.
Dunn: How, how long did this go on?
Boney: Umm I think that there were four counts of it.
Dunn: I see, which fraternity was that?
Boney: I would rather keep them out, but if it’s, if it’s something.
Dunn: Well, it is, it is significant, yeah, because that goes right to your credibility as to whether or not it was or wasn’t. Would you agree?
Boney: Yeah, yeah, but keep in mind I wasn’t a part of this fraternity at the time, I was simply trying to pledge. But it was Kappa Alpha Psi.
Dunn: Right there on 17th Street.
Boney: Something that you already probably know.
Dunn: No, no, I don’t.
Boney: It is court documented.
Dunn: I don’t have access to those. We are going to try to get access to those, obviously this week, but I was unaware of that. O.k.?
Boney: Right. Well back in 1989, um the Monroe County Court and its prosecution team did an investigation and they asked Kappa Alpha Psi, uh, basically if they knew me, they didn’t deny that, but they denied any involvement in having the shoes taken as a prerequisite for getting in..or something like that.
Dunn: Yeah, and how did this idea come up? Was it their idea, your idea?
Boney: No, I, it is one of those situations….I can’t even…it’s been so long, it is something that I try to forget about.

Denies Shoe fetish

Dunn: Yeah, but let me ask you very directly, do you have a shoe fetish?
Boney: No, I don’t.
Dunn: Have you undergone any counseling for, whether shoes or feet, or and I know, whatever the psychological terms are for that…podophilia or whatever?
Boney: Pedophile, not a pedophile but what do they call it umm, something for a foot fetish…ah.
Dunn: Well, that’s a, that would be retifism, I think would be the shoe, and podophilia would be the foot. That’s, that’s my understanding. Have you undergone any counseling for that at all?
Boney: Part of the plea agreement for the time that was given to me, back then, they gave me, if I’m not mistaken, uh maybe 10 do 5 or something and they suspended all but 3 months for me to do in the Monroe County Jail. And that’s documented, and they gave me Community Service…100 hours.
Dunn: O.k., but no, no counseling?
Boney: And also undergo sessions with a psychologist you know, I mean, it was such a bizarre thing, you know, you know.
Dunn: Has anything like that ever occurred again, since then?
Boney: Absolutely not.
Dunn: So you have never taken any shoes off of a woman, either in consensual sex or removed them with, without consent? Anything like that?
Boney: No sir, something like that, once you, you know get caught for anything, it’s like, that was a deterrent.
Dunn: Yeah, yeah, I understand.
Boney: O.k.
Dunn: Alright, uh so what happened then, so that was the first dealing, and then the second, uh, now the second go around was 1991. Is that right? The second time, you ran into trouble with the law?
Boney: Writing the bad checks?
Dunn: Well, no that down here? Wasn’t it? The check deception was down here?
Boney: No, that was Bloomington.
Dunn: Oh, was it?
Boney: Yes.

Armed robberies

Dunn: O.k. But then we’re talking about the armed robberies now.
Boney: O.k. Well see, there was a violation of probation involving some checks that was written to J.C. Penny that violated my probation and all the time that I had on the shelf I went and did 18 months of that.
Dunn: Where, where did you do that time?
Boney: Monroe County Jail, and then I got my DOC number, uh went to RDC, spent another 6 months in prison to get a taste of what prison was like, it was sort of like a shock thing.
Dunn: Where, where’d you do the time, the prison time?
Boney: Branchville.
Dunn: Oh, down south.
Boney: Yeah, Branchville in Tell City.
Dunn: O.k. And then you went back to Bloomington? Is that right?
Boney: Uh, after I was released I came back to New Albany (phone ringing) and…
Dunn: I think we can just ignore that.
Boney: O.k., after I was released I went back to New Albany, umm, I traveled back to Bloomington for the sole purpose of seeing my son and seeing my ex-wife at the time, and uh…
Dunn: Now who are they?
Boney: My ex-wife was Darci.
Dunn: Now is there a current suit pending on behalf of Darci is that right, or?
Boney: Suit?

Child support for son

Dunn: Well, as far as child support?
Boney: I’m paying child support now.
Dunn: Oh, are you?
Boney: Yes.
Dunn: O.k.
Boney: Yeah, that’s true.
Dunn: O.k., and that’s your son that you referred to the other night? The sixteen year old.
Boney: Yes.
Dunn: And what’s his name?
Boney: His name is Blair.
Dunn: Blair, and they live in Bloomington?
Boney: Yes.

October 92 armed robberies

Dunn: O.k., alright. Uh, o.k., so, so you are back up there and these armed robberies occur in 91 or ’92, whereabouts?
Boney: Uh, the armed robberies occurred in October of ‘92.
Dunn: O.k., can, can you run through me on that then?
Boney: O.k. there was an apartment complex with apartment office. In that particular office, um had a young lady in there that was counting out cash and there was an older woman in there that was counting out cash, and I had seen it and at the time I was packing. I had a .38 revolver, 5 shot and had no intentions of using it, in fact, the uh, the uh, weapon was not loaded.
Dunn: O.k.
Boney: But it could hold up to 5 shots. It was a 5 shot.
Dunn: Where did you get that?
Boney: Actually, I took it from my mother’s residence at the time because she had a weapon, uh, placed in a certain area of the house.
Dunn: And that is your mom, Barbara over here on Gary Drive?
Boney: That is correct.
Dunn: And let me stop here, and I failed to do this, and you know, that is not uncommon that I forget things, but there is another gentleman here in the conference room with us, right.
Boney: Yes, that is true.
Dunn: And that is Detective Gilbert. Would you kind enough to identify yourself? Gilbert: Detective Gary Gilbert, Indiana State Police.
Dunn: Yeah, and he is here at your request, is that right Charles?
Boney: Uh, that is correct.
Dunn: O.k. Fine, thank you. Alright, so, so anyway uh tell us about that apartment complex robbery then if you would.
Boney: Well, at the time I was indigent and I was just a very foolish and ignorant person back then. I, I wish I could go back and stop that kid from making that mistake.
Dunn: That’s another person?
Boney: The person that I am now, you know.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: I wish that I could do that, but the bottom line is that I did make that mistake. I did intentionally and knowingly go into that office with the intent…
Dunn: What apartment complex was that?
Boney: I honestly don’t remember the name of it.
Dunn: O.k.
Boney: But it was a Bloomington Apartment Complex and I went into that, that office where there was cash from payments that had been made.
Dunn: O.k.
Boney: You know rent, rent payments…
Dunn: Sure.
Boney: …and I took the cash that was there. I left the money orders and checks and all that stuff.I just took the cash. And I don’t recall exactly how much cash it was. That is something that only the court records would have because they would know for sure. I don’t remember exactly how much money. But it was significant to me at the time.
Dunn: What’d you do with that money?

Bought drugs, mostly marijuana, methamphetamines

Boney: Honestly, I can’t believe I’m telling the truth about this, but I honestly did buy some drugs, and
Dunn: What kind of drugs did you have?
Boney: Mostly just marijuana, you know, and stuff like that, pills.
Dunn: Crack? Did you, where, uh, did you ever do any crack?
Boney: No, I have never done cocaine. I have never had cocaine in my system.
Dunn: Yeah, what kind of pills?
Boney: Basically, like methamphetamines, stuff like that.
Dunn: That gives you a real buzz.
Boney: At, at the time it did. That was something that I felt like I needed. I was going through a period of inadequacy, uh trying to get over the stigma of prison, and things of that nature, and bottom line is, as a grown man today, and you know almost 36 years old, I had a problem with just blaming any, anything and anyone except for myself. I didn’t know how to get down to the heart of it. So bottom line is that’s the difference between me today and me back then.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: But I was looking for reasons to fulfill some of my, I think Sigmond Freud said it best there was an Id, Ego and Super Ego. The Id is your primitive side and I believe that I was more “idish”, if I may say that.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: I was more in tune with what makes you feel good, what makes you have fun, and then actually wanting to work and then slave for the $4.00 and the…
Dunn: And we, we failed to mention that. You told me the other day that you were working, what, three different jobs?
Boney: I have three.
Dunn: And I certainly won’t get in touch with your there, but where are they?
Boney: I, I will not mention any of my jobs.
Dunn: O.k.
Boney: But, Carrie Harnad from Wave TV 3, and other individuals. like the prosecutions office, people that I trust and that, you know, please understand that your motive is to…
Dunn: My motive is to find the truth.
Boney: …to find the truth, but you work for Mr. Camm
Dunn: Oh, absolutely.
Boney: (Phone is ringing) Let me get this,excuse me for a second
Dunn: Yeah. Boney I’m going to have to just turn this off real quick.
Dunn: Yeah. And let me explain that too, Charles. When I was asked to be a part of this defense investigating team, um, I said, and this is after I viewed the case, and thought that there was some real issues in the case as to his innocence, o.k.? Uh, but at the time I told his defense attorney, attorneys, as well as David Camm and the Lockhart family that I was only going to do, I was only going to investigate where the truth took me. And so, even though I am part of that team, nonetheless, I am only going to go where the truth takes us. Obviously, the revelation that your sweatshirt was found at the crime scene is a major revelation, you know, I would be derelict in my duty if I didn’t try and find how that got there and under what circumstances and other issues. Would you agree with that?
Boney: Yes sir, I do.
Dunn: Yeah, yeah, but I can understand your concern about me being on the defense team, and that’s, that’s understandable.
Boney: Yes.
Dunn: But nonetheless getting back without mentioning where you work, you do work a significant number of hours a week, you said.
Boney: Yes, and it has been verified by um, the prosecutions office.
Dunn: Yeah, and you said over 80 hours a week?
Boney: Approximately. I work quite a bit.
Dunn: Yeah, and what kind of industry, would you mind saying that?

Independent distributor

Boney: I don’t see the harm in that. I work in restaurants and also work as an independent distributor.
Dunn: O.k. Well, good, good. Alright, o.k. so anyway getting back to ninety, was it ‘91, is that right?
Boney: ‘92.
Dunn: And it was October of ’92. Um, was that the sole robbery or was there another one too wasn’t there?
Boney: The other one involved um an apartment complex, um quite honestly where I did not know the victims and I went to that apartment complex. At the time, I didn’t have a vehicle or anything and I was walking. And I would have been 23 years old, um. I remember seeing an individual look out their door, look at me funny and then close the door and then I went up to that building and I went in (phone ringing) because the door was like, semi-cracked but it was shut.
Dunn: O.k.
Boney: And uh I went in and I asked um a question that I don’t honestly remember and then I remember showing my weapon.
Dunn: Was it the same .38?
Boney: Yes, it was.
Dunn: O.k.
Boney: I remember showing the weapon (phone ringing)
Dunn: Go ahead, and I’m going to see if I can unplug this doggoned thing.
Boney: O.k. I’ll wait for you. (phone ringing)
Dunn: Go ahead.
Boney: I remember showing the weapon, um, to the inhabitants of the house.
Dunn: Who were the inhabitants?
Boney: Uh, there were two college females probably within 2 years of my age at the time and then there was an additional one that was upstairs and my intentions were to foolishly take them to an ATM and just withdraw some money and the, of course, just go about my business because I have never hurt anyone. You know I have never shot anyone or strangled, stabbed, nothing, you know, I mean I was just desperate. I was looking for that next high. You know, I was, I was just, I mean, I actually feel really good right now, being on tape and just kind of talking about it even after all these years..
Dunn: It’s sort of like a cathartis?
Boney: Yeah, it is a release, it definitely is. It is a release just to be able to feel good about, uh, airing your dirty laundry. That’s why I am not afraid of the news and that’s why I wasn’t afraid to meet with you because this in a way is like, um, it is like extended therapy. You know it’s like a reminder, hey don’t ever do those types of things again.
Dunn: Sure.
Boney: And I’m honestly just afraid, I mean, whenever I see a police officer behind me, even if I haven’t done anything, I am reminded of my past.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: Whereas, if I hadn’t never done anything, I would be like, oh so what if I am speeding, or, so what if I make an improper turn. Everything is serious to me, because I know what prison life is like and I know what it’s like to do time, and I empathize with the individual that you represent, Mr. David Camm, because, you know to be a person in law enforcement and then all of a sudden be placed in the place where he sends individuals, ultimately, he was the beginning process of that.
Dunn: Right.
Boney: You know, that’s very ironic.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: To do something like that.

Three coeds at gunpoint

Dunn: No, I would agree. I would agree that’s a, so what happened there with these three coeds, is that right?
Boney: I attempted to take them to an ATM, but before we could get out of the parking lot, uh, individuals from the Bloomington Police Department threw down on me. Illuminated the back window.
Dunn: How, how, how did they get notified? Do you know?
Boney: According to the papers that I had read there was a neighbor that had somehow seen it from outside. He was probably a voyeur or something, I mean, he was probably looking in, a peeper or something. He just happened to see it. It doesn’t make sense as to how he could have seen it, so, my idea, and I talked to Sergeant Detective Mike Diekhoff.
Dunn: Sure, I know him.
Boney: Yeah, he just, he was just like he was probably like a voyeur or peeper, but it paid off that day, so we are not even going to ask him about that. We will catch him later, that type of thing.
Dunn: Yeah, yeah.
Boney: But anyway, there was a call to the Bloomington Police Department and they arrived there before I left the house, and…
Dunn: And this was outside in the parking lot, you said?
Boney: Yes, it was outside
Dunn: And then you had the three girls with you? The three co-eds?
Boney: Yes,
Dunn: O.k., and you had them under like gunpoint?
Boney: Yes, but I wasn’t really like, like sticking it in their back, or anything like that, I had it in a downward position, and keep in mind that it wasn’t loaded.
Dunn: And that wasn’t loaded either?
Boney: No.
Dunn: O.k. So this was a non-threatening armed robbery?
Boney: It’s, it’s very threatening because whether a gun is loaded or not, it doesn’t matter.
Dunn: Yeah
Boney: It was very serious.
Dunn: O.k., so these were the two, and you were charged with armed robbery as well as criminal confinement, I believe?
Boney: That’s true.
Dunn: O.k., and then take us through that, uh, you eventually pleaded guilty? Is that right?
Boney: Yes, you know initially the judges, they, they uh, do a preliminary plea of not guilty, that is just, part of due process, and everything, and so then I met with my public defender, which back then I believe was Michael Hunt.
Dunn: O.k.
Boney: And um, I um just looked at him, and he looked at me and he was like man, he was like, first it’s shoes and now you graduated to armed robbery. And he just looked at me.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: And I was like, I know, he was just like, you are going to do some time, and I said yes, sir. And I said, um, I really don’t even want to try to do a plea agreement and he was like, you don’t want a plea agreement, and, I was like let’s just go ahead and get this thing going. I don’t see where my life is going right now, maybe prison would help me.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: That is what I said to him.
Dunn: O.k. So um there was an arrangement made between you, the defense team and the prosecutor, right?
Boney: Yes, initially they came with a plea bargain of, I think, it was just a Class B plea bargain where I could get anything but the minimum because it was aggravated circumstances as far as having a weapon.
Dunn: Sure.
Boney: But I could look at a 10, do 5, or the max of 20, do 10. On the day of court, and this is public record as well, I remember saying, and it’s true, it’s a fact, and you will find that because I know that you’re a man that does his homework. The judge asks me what am I going to do with you, Charles? And I looked at her and said, to give me anything less than the maximum sentence would depreciate the seriousness of the crime, so therefore I guess you will just have to give me the maximum sentence. I’m sure people thought that I was on crack that day. You know, to ask for time.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: But I did it for two reasons. Some people probably thought, o.k., he is probably using that as a reverse psychology move, you know to try to get less by, you know being you know, the type of guy that asks for more and, uh she just obliged him, he’s a fool…
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: …but I looked at it as, here’s the victim sitting behind me, all of them wanting justice, and oftentimes we have a lot of guys today that get away with stuff, or they get out too early.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: So I wanted to insure that I did what was proper so that I could pay my price. If I was gonna to get out early I was gonna work my way out and I did.

Early release

Dunn: And you did get out early, why is that?
Boney: Well, I could say honestly like twenty or thirty reasons. First and foremost, I became a tutor. I’m responsible for over forty men receiving their GED.
Dunn: Good for you.
Boney: Ok. That’s a true fact. I have documentation of that. I became a master tutor. I have over ten thousand hours of tutoring over a course of seven years.
Dunn: And where, which prison was this?
Boney: Indiana State Prison. Also, the Monroe County Jail. That’s where I became a tutor,initially, through the Vital Program.
Dunn: Good.
Boney: The Monroe County Library, the Vital Program. I know you’ve heard about it.
Dunn: Yeah, yeah, well good.
Boney: Basically I, Mr. Thornberry, he was the gentlemen at the Indiana Youth Center where Mike Tyson was. I actually never met the man honestly, I’d seen him, but where he was kept, we have a high school there. It’s called the Arthur Campbell High School and there you have Indiana State College and I went there.
Dunn: Yeah, and you earned some credits there?
Boney: Yeah, got some credits and I did the heating, air and refrigeration program, and I did substance abuse and I passed that with a 99%, and I got credit for anger management, things of that nature. Then I did a series of different religious studies for their (unintelligible)

Never met Leland Lockhart or David Camm

Dunn: What, what, and let me ask you while we’re on that, as far as religious studies and I mentioned this to you the other night, uh, Leland Lockhart who was the minister out at the Georgetown Community Church where David Camm was playing basketball the night of the murders, that’s David Camm’s uncle. Had you ever, did you ever associate him with that church or did you know who Leland Lockhart was?
Boney: Honestly, no. I’ve been asked that four or five times recently, even by you.
Dunn: Right and I did the other night. How about have any of your family members, to your knowledge, attend church out there?
Boney: No. Not that I know of.
Dunn: Did you ever, would you have ever seen Kim Camm or the children at Leland Lockhart’s property down the street?
Boney: I wouldn’t know who they are or even who Mr. Leland Lockhart is. I have no idea what he looks like or who he is. I wouldn’t even know who Sam Lockhart is except for the news…
Dunn: Right.
Boney: …and I’ve never, ever encountered Mr. David Camm.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: Never.


Dunn: O.k. and I want to talk about that after awhile. What, which church do you attend?
Boney: At this time, none.
Dunn: Were you attending any church when you were in prison, were you…?
Boney: There were some religious studies but more then anything I worked strong as a lay advocate. I was helping people with their, like getting cases overturned, things of that nature.
Dunn: Right.
Boney: So I started to just right into the law. Do sentence modifications, sentence reductions.
Dunn: And, and you, as I recall you also petitioned the Court for a couple of sentence modification on your own part right?
Boney: That’s correct.
Dunn: And you were unsuccessful the first couple of times?
Boney: Yes, I was. Very unsuccessful.
Dunn: But then, nonetheless, you were successful.
Boney: Yes, but that was definitely by the grace of God. I mean that was just a miracle because,basically I studied Malcolm X, for example, and he’s one of the most instrumental individuals to study, because he lived a life a crime, went to prison, became enlightened, our religions are just different. You know, but the Father in Heaven that I serve is of the Trinity, God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
Dunn: As a Christian.
Boney: As a Christian, he chose Allah and his Islamic religion. You know, being a Muslim.
Dunn: Right.
Boney: Aside from the differences in our religions, very, very similar. He was a wild, crazy kind of guy and he got off track and he ended up in prison. He became enlightened through individuals who knew better who wanted to stop that process of recidivism.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: Get in, go home, come back. That type of thing.
Dunn: Right. Did you have a mentor in prison?
Boney: Three or four, but one specific. His name was Max Out. The reason they called him that was because he maxed out, I mean his time. You know, his good time was no longer. He did so much until he maxed out.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: And this gentleman was an encouragement to me. He said you know don’t join gangs and be in all these little clicks and stuff, here’s how you do time. And he told me the rules. No homosexuals. Don’t fall weak to another man. Don’t borrow from anyone unless you pay them with great interest. Uh, if you have something to say, let it be the truth and tell it like it is because if you don’t say something quite right, it’ll come back to get you. That type of thing.
Dunn: Let me, let me stop you right here because I’m running just about out of, well we got a few, I guess we got a little bit left here. Go ahead, I’m sorry I didn’t meant to interrupt, I just don’t want, I only got X amount of minutes and normally it’s thirty but we got a little bit more on this. But this Max Out helped you come to grips with how to live the rest of your life then?
Boney: Not so much that, but how to survive in prison and how to do good time in prison.
Dunn: Yeah.

Boney prison record

Boney: Cause if you check my prison records, I only have three write-ups.
Dunn: And what were those for?
Boney: The first write-up was for possession of, or introduction to a something that could be used or orchestrated as a weapon and I took a polygraph on that, and of course, you know I passed, and they said, you know, o.k., fine. I busted a lightbulb. My mother traveled from, you know New Albany, all the way up to Michigan City, which took her a little under seven hours or something and then we went into lockdown that day because there was a stabbing and they turned her away and I couldn’t see her and I was so angry and I needed to talk to her, I needed her…


Dunn: O.k. here we go again. We’re still rolling, are we, we just changed tapes here?
Boney: Yes, sir.
Dunn: And we’re talking about your write-ups in prison.
Boney: Yes.
Dunn: O.k., and the third one was?
Boney: I don’t remember the exact order, but I do remember converting. It was, it was called, it was one of the least serious crimes. It was conversion. Like turning cafeteria food into something for profit or gain.
Dunn: Right.
Boney: You know, looking out for people.
Dunn: Minor stuff.
Boney: Putting extra food on their plate. You know, silly stuff like that.
Dunn: Right.
Boney: No insolence, no disrespect to any officers. No, oh, and there was fighting between me and another individual. That’s common. You’re always gonna hold your ground, you know. That’s just part of prison life.
Dunn: Sure.
Boney: You’re gonna have to defend yourself.

Release from prison, June 21 2000

Dunn: Yeah, so you get out when?
Boney: The exact date? June the 21st, 2000.
Dunn: And where are you released, from where?
Boney: I left the Monroe County Jail where the Judge released me from there and I went straight to New Albany.
Dunn: How did you get down to New Albany?
Boney: My mother came and picked me up, alongside my grandmother.
Dunn: Ok, so they knew you we’re gonna be released that day?
Boney: No, they didn’t. They had prayed for it. That’s why I said it was a miracle.
Dunn: Yeah. So, so you get out June the 21st, is that about right? Could it have been the 19th?
Boney: No, it was the exact day.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: These are… I have paperwork at home.
Dunn: Yeah, ok that’s fine. The paperwork I had said June the 19th.
Boney: No, no. June the 19th was a Saturday. Courts weren’t in session.
Dunn: I’ll take your word for it.
Boney: Yeah. June 21st was a Monday. It was Monday, June 21st, the first day of summer 2000.
Dunn: There you go.
Boney: I remember it as if it was yesterday.
Dunn: I’ll, I bet you do.
Boney: That was independence day.
Dunn: Yeah. There you go.
Boney: That was my July 4th.
Dunn: So you come down here. What kind of clothes are you traveling in?
Boney: When I left the Monroe, or excuse me, the Miami Correctional Facility because I was released from ISP, Indiana State Prison, to a lower facility based on good conduct, stuff like that, so I went from a level four down to a level three and then from there I was either to go home or maybe get down to a level two, and maybe even a work camp and get work release or something.
Dunn: Sure.
Boney: But I didn’t make it that far, so it was good, you know. To the point what I left Monroe County, or excuse me the Miami Correctional Facility MCF. When I refer to MCF, that’s what I’m talking about. When I left MCF, I had one pair of khakis and a khaki shirt with my name and my DOC number on it and I had one pair of sweatpants and a sweatshirt. I had maybe three pairs of socks and I had three pairs of underwear, a couple of towels, a laundry bag, shoes other than the state boots that I had and shower shoes and all my hygiene products, o.k. That’s the basic.
Dunn: So, are, are those the clothes you wore home or did your mom have some clothes for you?
Boney: No, I’m gonna tell you how all that evolved. I wore my prison stuff to the jail. When you get to the jail they delouse you and reprocess you and all that, so now I’m in jail clothes.
Dunn: Right.
Dunn: O.k., Monroe County Jail clothes.
Dunn: Right.
Boney: Once jail was, once my, my hearing was over and I was released, then I had a choice of changing into either prison garb or the clothes that my mother brought for me and naturally I took those clothes that my mother brought.
Dunn: Right.
Boney: I had a pair of tennis shoes, I had on, some, some pants. It was hot that day. It was incredibly hot. She brought me pants because I didn’t have any shorts. But along with the things that she brought, all the things that were in my property were mine, too. All the prison clothes and stuff. I took all those with me that day too, o.k.?
Dunn: Right.
Boney: So now I’m in New Albany, o.k.? I stopped at one place. I stopped at McDonald’s in Columbus, Indiana. And I got a meal there. I got to New Albany and stayed put. There waiting for me were several boxes that I sent home over the course of, you know, five or six years. I was still waiting for the last pieces of clothing and stuff that would have still been at MCF, o.k.? I went to work the very week that I got out.
Dunn: Where’d you go to work?
Boney: Anderson Wood. I got a job the very next day. It was waiting for me and I just went and…
Dunn: Where’s that? I don’t…
Boney: It’s in Louisville.
Dunn: Ok and what’d you do over there?
Boney: Wood specialist. We do handrails, we do the, the journeymen and people like that do kitchen cabinets, things of that nature. Everything that’s related to wood.
Dunn: Sure.
Boney: But I was a novice and so therefore I started on the lower ends, just putting pieces of wood together, separating wood, knowing the differences between say, like for example,between poplar and oak. Learning. I was in learning process.
Dunn: So you got that job the first week that you’re out?
Boney: I started Sunday. I got out on a Monday and I started work that following Sunday.Seven days later.
Dunn: O.k., alright, so how many boxes of clothing do you have then from, from MCF you said?
Boney: Ok after my release from MCF, uh, two additional boxes came about three weeks later, four weeks tops and it’s an approximation because I didn’t know for sure. In the Miami Correctional Facility would have the dates that boxes were sent for sure. That’s something you could definitely check out, ok? So, the only thing you gotta do is contact them.
Dunn: What, what was the contents though?
Boney: The contents of those boxes were as follows: uh, uh, sweatshirts, specifically one of the ones just like was found at the Camm…

Backbone sweatshirts

Dunn: How many sweatshirts did you have with…
Boney: Two.
Dunn: … with Backbone in it?
Boney: Both of them.
Dunn: O.k. There was one different from the other. One was a 2X and one was a 1X and the difference between the two of them was they both had Backbone in the back collar but in the front of this collar right here there was a 918815 on one of them.
Dunn: Now that’s your DOC number?
Boney: Exactly.
Dunn: Right.
Boney: So you know it had my DOC number on it.
Dunn: O.k.
Boney: And two pair of sweatsuits, you know, sweatpants. So it was two sets. There was jogging pants and the shirt, jogging pants and the shirt. I already had one of them with me from, you know, being in jail. I already had that in possession. The other one came later.
Dunn: I see.
Boney: Ok?
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: And along with those boxes, there were magazines. There were letters, mail…
Dunn: Among other stuff that you had accumulated.
Boney: You know stuff, you…
Dunn: So, what happened to the, uh, excuse us. Unidentified female: Could I use the rest room?
Dunn: Well, if you could use the other one, we’d appreciate it. Thank you. What happened to those prison clothes there, and I think you told me the other night but…
Boney: And I’ll be more than happy to tell you again.
Dunn: Sure.
Boney: Especially, you know, for this case and anyone else who wants to ask me.
Dunn: Sure.
Boney: All of my prison clothes and I’ll be very specific. There were one sets of khakis, I kept the state boots. They were brown in nature and I polished them to a high shine so I kept them. I was proud of them. It took me six or seven months to get to a good shine. It was a military shine…
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: …so I kept those and they were very wearable with jeans or anything else and I used them for work, in fact. I took one pain or khakis and one pair of, a khaki and shirt combination, ok, what I left with. It had Boney comma C period 918815 MCF, Monroe, uh Miami Correctional Facility. Ok. And the pants on, I think on the right side back pocket would have had that little same little sticker…
Dunn: Right.
Boney: …that you could peel off, you know, and they were very wearable. You know you could peel that stuff off,
Dunn: Right.
Boney: …but I didn’t need it, and I didn’t want to have anything that reminded me specifically of prison.
Dunn: The khaki stuff too?
Boney: Yeah, and I’m gonna tell you exactly what I got rid of. I got rid of one set of those khakis you know the shirt and the pants with my name still on them, 918815, and all that and two sets of sweat, what I call workout gear. So, two sweatshirts, both say Backbone. One says 918815 in the front part of this. The collar.
Dunn: Now tell me about Backbone. Where’d, where’d that name come from?
Boney: From Max Out.
Dunn: And he gave you that name?
Boney: I didn’t have a prison name. People were just calling me Boney and then eventually they couldn’t say that so they called me Bone and I just didn’t like it. So, he was like, you know, you seem like a guy that should called Backbone and it just stuck with me. He said it in front of more than one person so people started calling me Backbone.
Dunn: I see.
Boney: But I referred to myself at Backbone.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: And in my opinion, it’s, I fit the epitome of what a Backbone should have…a person who’s not spineless… a person that stands up. He helps people. You know, it’s like I’m not a perfect person, and I didn’t live a completely honest life in prison either. You know, I smoked weed a couple of times, I made homemade hooch, that was against the rules. We made money the wrong way, you know, we sold drugs and things like that to survive.So I wasn’t perfect, you know, I did a lot of stuff. I’ll never say oh, I was a great guy. It’s just that I never let the people in charge know what I was doing. They seen me as a guy helping everybody, but in along with prison life, you have to survive as well.
Dunn: Sure.
Boney: So you do what you have to do.
Dunn: That’s part of it, I would imagine.
Boney: Yeah. It’s a new world, it’s a different world.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: You do what you have to do within reason. There’s still a code and as long as you don’t break the code, you’re good. You know?
Dunn: Ok. So…
Boney: And I never did fully finish answering the question…
Dunn: You didn’t, and so what happened with… Let’s cut to the two sweatshirts. What happened to those?
Boney: Ok, those two sweatshirts along with, uh, I kept my socks, I gave away the underwear. These were brand new underwear, never worn. Never ever worn by me. They were still brand new, ok, so the underwear…
Dunn: Where’s you give those to?
Boney: I’m, I’m trying to explain all of this.
Dunn: Ok.

Salvation army drop box

Boney: Ok. The underwear, the sweatshirts and the sweatpants and the prison clothes, the khakis with my name and DOC number were all put into what I’d want to say a Dillard’s bag but it could have been a JC Penny bag but let’s just simply say, a shopping bag. But let’s assume it was a Dillard’s bag, ok? I put it in that bag, a plastic bag. Like what a young lady would carry shopping in the mall. I put all that, and I put it in the little drop box. This drop box is located at that Salvation Army where Daisy Lane ends and where Grantline Road intersects.
Dunn: Where, which, and in the intersection whereabouts would that have been, exactly?
Boney: Bottom line is if you go all the way up Daisy Lane till you meet Grantline Road, it’s directly in front of you, just go straight back and you know its right there.
Dunn: So it’s between two buildings or is it…
Boney: There’s a bank on the corner.
Dunn: Right.
Boney: And then there’s what used to Libs, the produce place,
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: Over across the street, there’s an Auto Zone. There’s a Salvation Army just right there.
Dunn: So it’s on the opposite side of Auto Zone?
Boney: Opposite side yes, but…
Dunn: Yeah, ass, and let me, as you’re coming down, here’s Grantline and I think, here’s Beechwood, right?
Boney: Right.
Dunn: And here’s Daisy Lane.
Boney: Ok.
Dunn: And you said this would be the Auto Zone here?
Boney: Yes.
Dunn: Ok what, tell me exactly.
Boney: Right here?
Dunn: It’s right here?
Boney: Where did you say is Beechwood?
Dunn: Beechwood’s over here.
Boney: Beechwood.
Dunn: Beechwood.
Boney: Ok, right here there’s a bank, I think it’s a National City Bank.
Dunn: Right.
Boney: Right next to National City is the Salvation Army.
Dunn: Ok. So, so it was a collection box?
Boney: It’s a drop box.
Dunn: A drop box.
Boney: Yes.
Dunn: Ok and that’s where you put the sweatshirt, the one…
Boney: Two sweatshirts.
Dunn: Two sweatshirts
Boney: Two sweatshirts, two sweatpants, prison underwear, that I didn’t need. Honestly, they were too small for me, ok, and you know I was outgrowing them. I was getting bigger and you know lifting weights.
Dunn: How much did you weight at that time?
Boney: I’d say I weighed probably about two fifty-five.
Dunn: So ok. You put on some weight when you were in prison. A lot of mass, lot of muscle too?
Boney: Yeah, quite a bit. Cause you know you’re just working out doing pushups, things like that.
Dunn: Sure. Ok, so when did you take that bag and place it there and with whom if anybody?
Boney: Ok, I was by myself and the only reason why I can recall the date, I knew that I was driving. I didn’t have a car until August. Keep in mind, oops, let me change mine.
Dunn: Sure, go ahead.
Boney: Eject button, too, I just, I just turn it over?
Dunn: Alright.
Boney: We’re gonna continue.
Dunn: Ok, so we’re talking about the disposal of the sweatshirts. Ok. The two… And so you said you went there by yourself.
Boney: That’s correct. The only reason why I remember it, honestly, is because I was driving at the time. I remember myself driving there.
Dunn: What did you drive at that time?
Boney: I had a midnight blue Cadillac with Masonic plates, cause the car was officially my uncle’s until I paid him off.
Dunn: Alright, and who’s your uncle?
Boney: John, uh, John G. Scott of Evansville.
Dunn: And what kind of Cadillac was that?
Boney: It was a 1986 Cadillac Deville.
Dunn: Ok that would have been a four-door then?
Boney: Two-door.
Dunn: Two-door, ok. So that’s John G. Scott of Evansville.
Boney: Um, hmm.
Dunn: Ok, so, did you have a driver’s license at that time?
Boney: Oh, absolutely.
Dunn: So you’d gotten a license?
Boney: Absolutely. I was driving legal.
Dunn: Ok, and how soon after you got out did you take these garments there to get rid of them?
Boney: Ok, I know for sure it would have been August and the reason why I’m so sure is because I was driving only in August. I had not yet had a car.
Dunn: So this is August of 2000?
Boney: Yes, and I’m, the only thing that sticks in mind, I know it was before the middle of the month, so lets just say before August the 15th I would have dropped those off so the news is inaccurate. I think they said something about three months before the killings. It was a month and some change. Like a month and half or so.
Dunn: Why did you wait until two months had elapsed or thereabouts before you got rid of the stuff?
Boney: Everything was in a box in my room. Keep in mind I’m going to work. I don’t have time to do anything. I’m going to work and doing what I need to do to make money and stuff. So these things have accumulated and I’m constantly talking to my mom about prison this, and prison that, and oh, when I was in prison, and oh, when I was doing that… I’m getting on her nerves. She’s like you need to get rid of any and everything that’s prison related…
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: …cause I’m tired of hearing about prison. Go on with your life. You’re free now. I don’t want to hear anymore.
Dunn: So you got rid of everything except the boots and some socks is that about right?
Boney: I mean I even got rid of my prison television. You know. Uh, books, magazines, all that stuff.
Dunn: What did you do with your television.
Boney: DAV.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: Yeah, I believe there on Berry, uh Berry Boulevard.
Dunn: Ok, alright, so any reason why you decided on the Salvation Army to get rid of it there?
Boney: It was the right thing to do. My mom told me, honestly, just like she told the investigators, I told him to just throw the stuff away but he took it to the Salvation Army, so I do have people who can collerabate the fact that I took my stuff to the Salvation Army.
Dunn: You mean, you lost me. You said that he said take it to the Salvation Army. I missed something there I guess. You took it to the Salvation Army correct?
Boney: I took, I took it to the Salvation Army.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: And mother didn’t want me to do anything like that. She wanted me to just simply throw it away.
Dunn: I see. Ok.
Boney: Ok, instead of just throwing stuff away that had, you gotta understand something. When you’re in prison, all you have is what’s…
Dunn: I understand.
Boney: Everything that you’re name has on it. A book, a magazine, anything.
Dunn: Your name and reputation.
Boney: You become very possessive of that. That’s yours.
Dunn: Right.
Boney: And you don’t just throw it away.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: Like you have on some nice shoes. Ok?
Dunn: That’s my only pair.
Boney: Ok, let’s assume you had ten pair.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: And I like that tie too.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: Let’s assume you have twenty or thirty ties. Ok, regardless of how expensive they are. You may decide I don’t want this tie, anymore, you could just throw it away.
Dunn: Right.
Boney: But if all you have is two or three ties, you know, all you have is just this little bit of stuff. You’re like, hey, I think I could trade this in, for something at the Salvation Army. Which is not something that I chose to do…
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: I just simply gave them away…
Dunn: Right.
Boney: …cause it meant a lot to me.
Dunn: Why the Salvation Army over Goodwill or anything else?
Boney: Well, first of all, Goodwill is way far away from the house.
Dunn: Ok. So.
Boney: I don’t know where a Goodwill is specifically, and based on being on Gary Drive you’re what, three minutes away?
Dunn: So, so your mom said get rid of it, but it was your own idea to give it to Salvation Army.
Boney: Absolutely.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: No one encouraged me to, to give it to Salvation Army. That was my choosing.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: That was my choice.
Dunn: And that was you think, in mid August of 2000?
Boney: Prior to mid August.
Dunn: You put it in the receptacle there, is it, what kind of receptacle was it?
Boney: It was a dropbox.
Dunn: It, do you, do you pull the thing down and…
Boney: Its one of those dropboxes where once you put it down you can’t reach in and get it. It’s impossible.
Dunn: Sort of like a big mailbox.
Boney: You could look at it like that.
Dunn: Yeah, ok, ok. You theorized the other night about what could have happened to that when you and I were talking.
Boney: That’s correct.
Dunn: Tell me about that again, if you would.

Female DNA on sweatshirt

Boney: Ok. I’ve got lots of theories. First and foremost there’s unknown female DNA on that sweatshirt, ok? I don’t recall ever letting a female specifically wear my prison clothes.
Dunn: Well, well, let’s, did you wear those sweatshirts from the time you were released until the time that you got rid of them?
Boney: I had my own clothes.
Dunn: Ok, but so the, the answer is no, right?
Boney: The answer is no.
Dunn: Ok, so if there was unknown DNA from a female on that sweatshirt, it had to have gotten there after you got rid of it.
Boney: That is correct.
Dunn: Ok, and you had a theory about that the other day too?
Boney: That is correct.
Dunn: And what is that?
Boney: Bottom line is, if there’s unknown DNA belonging to a female on my sweatshirt that I owned up to, these gentlemen have worked hard with me, I said, hey that’s my sweatshirt. Well guess what, it’s been in a triple, it’s been identified in a triple homicide.
Dunn: Absolutely, yeah.
Boney: There’s unknown DNA belonging to a female. Did a female, you know, they told to not try to investigate, let them do their job.
Dunn: Mm, hmm.
Boney: What I’d like to do is, and I’m sure they’ve already done it. Go to the Salvation Army and say hey, when clothes come here do you wash them all. If you don’t wash them all, what happens to them from this point to this point. At what point are they put out to sell into your thrift store, and if they are all washed, who’s responsible for washing them and who would have been in charge of receiving these items and washing them at this time?
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: Ok. Where did the female DNA come from? Is that female responsible for these murders? And if not specifically, could she be identified such that who she gave those to or loaned them to or passed them on to could be identified? Those are some of the things.
Dunn: Do you think, do you think that someone would, would give away a sweatshirt with Backbone names on it. You think that’s, I guess I’m a little skeptic of that, that someone would want such a garment like that.
Boney: I understand what your point is but you have to understand from where I’m sitting…
Dunn: Um, hmm.
Boney: How do I know in this day and time, I mean, we have women like Susan Smith for example who, who killed all of her kids and they claimed that a black man did it. And then it turned out that it was her.
Dunn: Sure.
Boney: You see what I’m saying?
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: Just silly stuff like that. So I’m skeptical of what people’s intentions are. How do I know that someone didn’t see my garments with my DOC number, oh, this is a guy who just got of prison. Hmm. Wow. Let me use these and I’ll leave these here. I don’t know what people’s intentions are.
Dunn: Yeah, but the one the 2X clearly had your number written on the front right?
Boney: That is correct.
Dunn: And the other one that was left at the scene…
Boney: Well you know on the inside of the collar.
Dunn: Yeah, but the other one was left at the scene, it had your numbers on there but it was faded quite appreciably. I assume that was one of your older ones since it was the 1X right?
Boney: Well they were both purchased at the same time…
Dunn: Ok, ok.
Boney: …so they would have had the same type of markins.
Dunn: Yeah, well and it would be nice if we could find the other one, the 2X to see just how, cause if it was, I guess I’m the theory off if its there and its easily seen, then that would explain why a person would want to leave that at the scene as to see a DOC number. You understand what I’m saying, if it was clearly evident rather than one that was faded and couldn’t be seen.
Boney: My other theories consist of this and this is the one thing that’s really, uh, I’m on top of it. I have individuals that are working for me as well and you know family members that believe in my innocence.
Dunn: Sure.
Boney: So bottom line is, if it was cold that day and keep track of what I’m getting ready to do…
Dunn: Mmm, hmm.
Boney: If it was cold that day, a person would wear a sweatshirt. Why would take the sweatshirt off and commit murders and leave it at the, you know, the scene of the crime?
Dunn: It could be a sexual assault.
Boney: Was, was anyone sexually assaulted at that crime scene?
Dunn: Well, could well be. Sure.
Boney: So, there’re, you know, those are things that, you know, need to be taken into consideration.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: The next thing that I’m looking at is, if it was warm that day, why would a person have a sweatshirt anyway? Another theory, if me and David Camm, which we don’t know each other, and I’m making that known on tape right now.
Dunn: Right.
Boney: We don’t know each other. I’m sure he can say, man, I don’t know that guy, and I know I don’t know this gentlemen. Ok. If someone theorizes that we were in cahoots with one another. Why would he leave my sweatshirt at the scene of the crime knowing that ultimately my DOC number and my DNA would lead right back to him?
Dunn: That doesn’t make any sense does it?
Boney: It doesn’t make any sense at all. So there goes out the theory that we know each other. That doesn’t make sense.

Warm temperature, no rain

Dunn: Well, yeah, and getting back to your, the temperatures about 55-58 degrees that night. No rain. Just a normal, autumn day. And, uh, I’m going from the records of Detective Clemons. I want to say its 55 to 58…
Boney: You’re talking about Detective Sean Clemons?
Dunn: Yes.
Boney: Who I also went to high school, and graduated with.
Dunn: Oh, you did.
Boney: I know him.
Dunn: And this would have been in the days before your name was Backbone of course?
Boney: Yes.
Dunn: Ok, ok. Has anyone ever talked to you about this case before, prior to the last two weeks?
Boney: Everything that has come to light has been a big surprise. And those were the exact words that I used in the media. This was a big surprise to me.
Dunn: Yeah, ok, so the answer would be no, that you haven’t talked to any police officers.
Boney: No.
Dunn: or anybody?
Boney: No.
Dunn: So on the DNA on the…
Boney: I want to make something very clear. I talked to Gary and Wayne specifically on February the 17th of this year.
Dunn: Ok. That was the first time…
Boney: At approximately 3:30.
Dunn: uh, am/pm?
Boney: pm.
Dunn: Ok, so that was the first time.
Boney: Yes.
Dunn: Ok. So getting back to this sweatshirt, if the unknown DNA is from a female that you know that would be highly unlikely?
Boney: That’s correct.
Dunn: And it couldn’t be from any time that you had possession of that sweatshirt? The unknown female DNA was on that.
Boney: There’s no way in my mind, keep in the mind, all of the clothes were packed away in my closet.
Dunn: Was there any stains on the sweatshirt when you got rid of them?
Boney: Everything, my DNA, stains, all that stuff I mean, these were dirty clothes.
Dunn: Yeah any blood stains?
Boney: Blood?
Dunn: Yes.
Boney: No.
Dunn: No blood stains.
Boney: I never cut myself or anything like that shaving or whatever. No.
Dunn: Ok, ok.
Boney: No.

Denies ever in Camm garage

Dunn: As far as any other DNA of yours at the scene, were you ever in the Camm garage?
Boney: No.
Dunn: Were you ever in the Camm house?
Boney: No.
Dunn: Did you ever meet Kim Camm?
Boney: Never.
Dunn: Did you ever meet Jill Camm?
Boney: No.
Dunn: Did you ever meet Bradley Camm?
Boney: No.
Dunn: Did you ever know any members of the Brad, uh, the Camm family?
Boney: I’m not sure if Danny Camm is… Do you know Danny Camm?
Dunn: I know him.
Boney: Ok I went to school with Danny Camm, if it’s the same Dan Camm.
Dunn: That would be David’s younger brother.
Boney: Ok, so, I, I know Danny Camm. I went to school with him. In fact we went to Scribner together and we went to New Albany High School together.
Dunn: You ever at his parent’s house?
Boney: I’ve never associated with Danny Camm at all. I mean, you know, he was more of an uppity, more top of the class kind of guy. I was sort of in the middle. I had hoods and preps as friends. I was just down to earth kind of guy.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: Not to say that he wasn’t. I’m just saying he had his own crowd and I had mine.
Dunn: But uh, were you ever at his house?
Boney: I’ve never been to any of the Camm’s homes.
Dunn: None, whatsoever?
Boney: None.
Dunn: Or the Lockharts?
Boney: I don’t know. I’ve never met the Lockharts.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: I only know of Sam Lockhart because of television.
Dunn: Right. Would there be any way, shape, manner or form that any of your DNA would be at the crime scene, other than on the sweatshirt?
Boney: I understand exactly what you’re saying and the only way that my DNA would be at the crime scene is if I were there, and I was not there, so therefore, no, my DNA would not show up at the crime scene.
Dunn: Would there be any way, shape, manner or form that any of your fingerprints would be on or near that crime scene?
Boney: My fingerprints would not appear at that crime scene because first and foremost, once again, I would have had to have been there in order for my fingerprints to appear at the crime scene.
Dunn: Ok, so the ans, once again, it’s no, no, right?
Boney: That’s correct.
Dunn: Ok, how about from the time you got out of prison until now. Have you ever been in possession of any weapon, any gun?
Boney: The answer to that question is honestly, no, but technically, yes, in that when I shared with the investigators about an individual that lived with me and my estranged wife, specifically her brother, his name is Wayne Massey. That particular individual did have a, a, particular caliber weapon, it was brandish, didn’t see exactly what it was.
Dunn: What kind of caliber was it?
Boney: Don’t know. I was unable to tell.
Dunn: Was it a revolver, a semi-automatic?
Boney: I honestly do not know. I just know that he was carrying, I know he was packing because he was staying with us because he was having problems with his wife.
Dunn: Why would he be packing heat?
Boney: That’s something you’d have to ask him.
Dunn: And when was this? When did this occur? What time frame, Charles?
Boney: 2001.
Dunn: Ok, this has been after the Camm murders?
Boney: Oh, yeah.

Denies ever possessed a gun

Dunn: Ok, did you ever have possession of that gun?
Boney: No.
Dunn: Have you ever possession of any gun since you got out of prison?
Boney: No. There’s, there’s no need for me to have possession of any weapon.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: I’m not in fear of my life or you know, I didn’t have any…

Crimes since prison, stun gun, protective order

Dunn: Have you ever committed any crimes since you’ve been out of prison?
Boney: Yes, I have. I struck my wife and, when she
Dunn: Would that be your current wife?
Boney: That’s correct. My wife had a stun gun, the little zap, the little stun guns that they carry.
Dunn: Mmm, hmm.
Boney: Uh, she works at a nightclub and she carried for her own protection. I was accused of cheating and I’ve shared this with the authorities as well, during the course of being accused of adultery and things of that nature we got in a heated argument, she grabbed her stun gun and I twisted it toward her and I stunned her with it, but it’s still the same as doing it myself. I took full responsibility for it.
Dunn: Did you ever threaten her with a gun?
Boney: No, that’s preposterous there. I would never ever…
Dunn: She’s claimed that, though.
Boney: She can claim, it’s a stun gun.
Dunn: No, no, no. It was, it was a gun and a stun gun.
Boney: No. I’ve never.
Dunn: That’s what that protective order said.
Boney: Yeah, but that’s just it. I’ve never and she’s…
Dunn: So she was lying at that time?
Boney: Well, she, she lied about two things in that protective order, and keep in mind if someone is estranged, I mean, I have a new life, I have a new girl and everything. She knows I’ve moved on. She has every reason in the world to bury me and she said on the news he couldn’t have done it. There’s also…
Dunn: She didn’t know you at that time though, I don’t think, did she? In 2000.
Boney: No. No.
Dunn: And that’s great that you got a person standing by you and others too.
Boney: I mean its good to have a person that you’ve done something to, to stand by you…
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: Because it would be easy for someone that’s…
Dunn: Hold on here. Let’s, let’s…doggonit, you can go on and do what you want to do there, I will…
Boney: I will, I will just let it continue to play.
Dunn: That will work, buddy…..I’m, I’m gonna go ahead and stop this as well.
Boney: Ok.

End of tape number two.

Dunn: There we go. Do you want a cup of coffee or something?
Boney: Actually, I’ve got just a little bit of Coke left, I think I’m good.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: Are you ok? Do you need a break?
Dunn: No, buddy, I’m fine.
Boney: Ok, you ready to go on?
Dunn: I’m an old man, here, I could…let’s see, come on here, buddy. There we go, we’re rolling again here, sorry for the delay here, Charles.
Dunn: Alright, so if anybody, including your estranged wife or anybody else would claim that you would have been in possession of a gun upon your, from the time that you were released from prison until as we sit here today, they would be lying?
Boney: Absolutely, because I know what I have had, and have not had in my possession.
Dunn: Ok, and so a gun’s not one of them.
Boney: That is correct.
Dunn: And you don’t recall what the caliber of weapon that Wayne Massey had?
Boney: No, I don’t. I know that he had a, a specific weapon, and that he let her know and she of course told me. And Amber’s the type of person, she’ll, anything you tell her, she’ll talk about it.


Dunn: Ok. How about the murder weapon that apparently was used in the Camm murders was a Lorcin. Have you ever heard of a Lorcin? A .380 semi-automatic?
Boney: I’ve heard of a .380 but what is Lor… is that the brand name?
Dunn: Lorcin is a, a very cheap brand name. Yeah.
Boney: Ok.
Dunn: Yeah, very cheap. Have you ever had in your possession a .380 semi automatic?
Boney: No, I have not.
Dunn: Have you ever had a Lorcin handgun in your possession?
Boney: No, I have not.
Dunn: Ok, and you’ve never fired a handgun in the last, when was the last time you fired a handgun?
Boney: Military, but that’s not a handgun, that’s a M 16 Alfa 2, actually Alfa 1 rifle.
Dunn: Ok, so that’s, so you’ve never fired a handgun.
Boney: Never had to.
Dunn: Ok. So anybody that says that you were in possession of one or even fired one would be wrong?
Boney: Absolutely.
Dunn: Ok, ok. And before I, I forget about it, I’ve noticed the tattoos here. And it’s my understanding you do have Backbone tattoos, is that right?
Boney: I have a tattoo that says Backbone on it.
Dunn: Good, would you mind showing it to me?
Boney: No, not a problem. This is it right here. And bottom line is and Mr. Camm would know if he, actually, actually, Mr. Camm was protective custody, so he was never in gen pop.
Dunn: Yeah, now what, what is that character, that figure there?
Boney: People get, not everyone, but most people get tattoos identifying what their crime is
Dunn: Right.
Boney: Ok? Bottom line is we hate child molesters, we hate rapists, we hate sexual predators, and we don’t like individuals that do things to the elderly, things like that. So we have a police among our little community.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: So when we, those people come to prison or whatever, they get dealt with. That’s on tape, I’m just admitting it. I was involved in some of that.
Dunn: Like what? Like…
Boney: I won’t say specifically.
Dunn: But, but, the prison has their, their own police force in prison.
Boney: In other words we don’t want, I mean, you know, I’m a father and if there’s an individual that accused of being a child molester and its proven, we know, just doing time is not enough, they got to go through a little bit more.
Dunn: Mmm, hmm.
Boney: That’s just what it’s about.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: So bottom line is, we don’t like anyone who would do stuff to kids, and that’s part of being Backbone.
Dunn: What, what, what is that character there, Charles?
Boney: This character is a skeleton because my names Bone, you know, so Bones like the skeleton.
Dunn: Right.
Boney: So, it’s a, he’s holding a money bag and he has a weapon in his hand.
Dunn: What kind of weapon?
Boney: Because, because I’m in, it’s a .45, because I’m, you know, in prison, the prison system for armed robbery.
Dunn: I see. So that, that was art imitating life then more or less?
Boney: Basically. I mean, because you know, gang bangers they have their little, I’m not going say anyone specific, you know, or any gang specifically, but they have stuff on them. Tattoos that identify who they represent.
Dunn: Sure.
Boney: Or what they represent.
Dunn: Alright. Uh, the, what you told me the other night about never being in the Georgetown area other than going on I-64, were you ever to your knowledge in or around the David Camm residence?
Boney: The only time I’ve ever been through Georgetown is to go through there in order to get to Evansville. Whenever, but that’s not residential, that’s all just highway.
Dunn: And you indicated that, that you’d also been to Floyd Central, of course.
Boney: Sure, when I was, I mean that’s like ‘84, ‘85, ‘86 and ‘87. Football games, basketball games, wrestling, whatever. Yeah.
Dunn: Where you ever, in, in September of 2000, you were driving your uncle’s car?
Boney: That is correct.
Dunn: So, all of September 2000.
Boney: From August until I kept that car for well over a year and half or so. I kept it a long time.
Dunn: Ok, and you had it titled. Did you have it registered in your name?
Boney: Eventually.
Dunn: Ok, but in September 2000, it was in your fathers…
Boney: Uncle’s.
Dunn: Your uncle’s name.
Boney: John Scott’s
Dunn: John Scott. And he lives in Evansville. You have his address?
Boney: No, I don’t.
Dunn: Is he still living?
Boney: Yes.
Dunn: Ok, that may be a guy that I’m sure some of us would like to talk to as well.
Boney: Great.
Dunn: Were you driving any other vehicles at that time?
Boney: Not at that time, no.
Dunn: It was my understanding that someone bought you a vehicle after you got out of prison though. Is that accurate?
Boney: That is not correct at all. I purchased my own vehicle. I put $400 down on it and it’s that Cadillac. It wasn’t gonna be mine, he wouldn’t give me the title, in other words, until I paid him in full.
Dunn: I understand. Was that car ever lent by you to anybody else?
Boney: Hmm, I don’t believe so.
Dunn: Ok. If someone saw a car strikingly similar to this car in the Camm neighborhood right before the murders, it would, it wouldn’t be this car?
Boney: First and foremost, I’ve never been there with that car.
Dunn: Yeah, but, but, so, but the answer would be no, then.
Boney: That’s correct. It’s not, there’s not a chance that that particular vehicle or any vehicle that I would be driving would be in Georgetown, period, because I’ve never been there.
Dunn: Ok, ok.
Boney: I want to make that very clear.
Boney: And the Camm’s lived on Lockhart road which is a dead end road off Alonzo Smith Road.
Boney: I have no idea.
Dunn: Ok, so that’s…
Boney: I’ve seen their home on television. I seen it this morning on television.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: How to get there, I have no idea.
Dunn: Ok, alright. And alright. How about the oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, back up here for a minute if you would, and you’re talking to me the other night you’re talking about your, your previous MO or which is what you referred to as being into robbery, ok? To your understanding there is nothing taken from the Camm residence. Is that right?
Boney: I was informed of that. That is correct.
Dunn: Well that may not be accurate, ok? There may have been some items that were stolen there. If that’s the case then that would possibly include you as, as a suspect because of your previous MO. Would you agree or disagree with that?
Boney: I’m gonna, I see where you’re going with it…
Dunn: I’m not trying to fool you, I’m just telling you straight up.
Boney: Well, bottom line is, its been brought to my attention that things such as wedding rings, credit cards, cash, things of that nature, stuff that is just readily available to take was still there. And that why they looked more at him because it didn’t seem or appear to be a robbery.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: So those are the things that are fact that we…
Dunn: That, that, that may not be factual, but anyway I understand where you’re coming from. So the question then Charles would be, do you have anything or did you have anything that belonged to Kim Camm or that came from the Camm residence?
Boney: I have never been there. I’ve never met them. So therefore, it would be impossible for me to have anything in my jurisdiction.

Pawn shop

Dunn: Ok. How about, have you ever pawned any items since you got out of prison?
Boney: Pawned any items? I’m thinking because I have been to a pawn shop and I’ve purchased a wedding band.
Dunn: Is that for your current wife?
Boney: I’m, I’m not married. I mean I’m legally married, but I’m talking about this is for my fiancé.
Dunn: I see.
Boney: I’ve been to the pawn shops specifically, Stewart’s pawn shop to purchase…
Dunn: Is that over in Louisville?
Boney: Yes, it is. It’s on Broadway. I bought a ring over there.
Dunn: You ever pawn anything there?
Boney: No.
Dunn: How about any other, have you ever sold any items, female items, I’ll just leave it generic like that, to a pawn shop or to anybody else since you’ve been out of prison?
Boney: No, I’ve never sold anything to a pawn shop since I’ve been out of prison.
Dunn: Ok, have you ever given anything other than a wedding ring to any other female friends or fiancés?
Boney: Uh, there was a pawn shop where the Auto Zone is, right by that Salvation Army right in that little.
Dunn: Oh, at Grantline and…
Boney: There was a pawnshop there and I had purchased a VCR and I purchased some change or something.
Dunn: What kind of change?
Boney: I mean, I purchased a, you know like a gold chain.
Dunn: Oh, I see.
Boney: And that pawn shop I think is out of business but the records as to where it was…
Dunn: When would that have been, Charles?
Boney: It would have been like 2000, 2001.
Dunn: Ok. So this would have been…
Boney: I purchased those things though.
Dunn: I see. But didn’t sell anything to anybody.
Boney: I’m sorry?
Dunn: You didn’t sell anything to anybody? Other than, when I say sell anything, didn’t sell any personal items, any female personal items to anybody including the pawn shop.
Boney: No. That’s correct.
Dunn: Your source of income back in 2000…
Boney: Was Anderson Wood. I was making well over $300 a week and I worked 45 hours a week approximately, when I wasn’t ditching work to be with my girl at the time, and cause I…

Mala Singh

Dunn: Who was your girl at that time?
Boney: Mala Singh.
Dunn: I’m sorry?
Boney: Mala Singh. M-A-L-A S-I-N-G-H Mala Singh.
Dunn: Where is she now?
Boney: That’s a good question. These gentlemen are trying their best to…
Dunn: Where, where did you meet her?
Boney: I actually met her at a restaurant.
Dunn: Was she working there or…
Boney: Yes. It was a restaurant in Louisville on Broadway called Kings.
Dunn: Kings Restaurant.
Boney: Yep, fast food. I believe its 18th and Broadway or 21st and Broadway something like that.
Dunn: I see, and did you guys live with one another?
Boney: For a while. She came and actually lived at my mother’s home with me. My mother knew that after me being in prison, I would need a woman so she allowed me to have a live-in girlfriend.
Dunn: I see. How old was Mala?
Boney: I, I’m just guessing she’d probably 25, 26 now.
Dunn: When’s the last time you’ve seen her?
Boney: Hmm, 2001.
Dunn: And when did you hook up with her?
Boney: Immediately, after prison.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: Within a week or two.
Dunn: Ok, did you know her before?
Boney: No.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: I met her fresh.
Dunn: She’s a Singh. Is that like an Indian name?
Boney: She’s from Trinidad.
Dunn: Trinidad. Ok. Ok. You ever been there? It’s beautiful.
Boney: I’ve never left the United States and can’t now.
Dunn: Why?
Boney: I’m under investigation.
Dunn: But there’s no court restrictions or anything like that?
Boney: It is as far as I’m concerned. I live my life everyday as if there’s someone watching me 24 hours a day and I do everything that’s asked of me. I know exactly what I do. I have time lines. I write down everything and I make calls several times a day. I have 5 people that I call including the prosecutor’s office. Everyone knows where I’m at all times, even when I’m on the road, and I have people follow me to work now.
Dunn: You do?
Boney: Yes, I do.
Dunn: Who’s following you to work?
Boney: I won’t say. I have people. Nah, I’m saying…
Dunn: You’re not getting paranoid on me are you?
Boney: No, no, no, no, no, I have people that I’ve appointed to follow me.
Dunn: I see.
Boney: To, to watch what I do.
Dunn: So friends who can vouch for where you’re at?
Boney: Exactly. That, it was something that was volunteered and that’s something that I wanted and so I have someone watching me all the time.
Dunn: Yeah, what, how about uh, let, let’s talk about was anybody watching your back on September 28th of 2000 when the Camm family was murdered?
Boney: I have three or four sets of individuals. These individuals I, Gary what do you think, is this information I should give? Gilbert: That’s, that’s up to you.
Boney: Ok. Well, I mean, I don’t have any reason to hide it.
Dunn: Sure.
Boney: You guys are gonna check it out anyway.
Dunn: Sure.
Boney: With them. Uh, at approximately two o’clock that day 2 p.m. specifically, I was with Marshall King, he’s a veterinarian at the Beechwood Animal Clinic.
Dunn: Where’s that located?
Boney: Beechwood.
Dunn: Where at? In New Albany?
Boney: Yeah, in that same little area right by the Salvation Army.
Dunn: And how do you remember that, Charles?
Boney: Because I did a timeline and when I talking to Mr. Wayne Kessinger he said, I remember the Camm murders because it was a landmark, it was something that you just remember, you always remember stuff like that.
Dunn: And that was a term you used with me the other night, was landmark.
Boney: Yes.
Dunn: Right.
Boney: So he recalled that day, and he knew what he was doing. The date, the year before on September 28th, 1999 he couldn’t recall…
Dunn: Right.
Boney: …so he, during the course of their investigation, told me about the significance of going back and coming up with a timeline.
Dunn: Right.
Boney: So I went back and I recalled the day that I had first heard about them, which would have been that Friday and I asked myself, ok, what was I doing that day, and I went back and I thought about and I thought about and it took me a little bit.
Dunn: So you’re backtracking now.
Boney: Absolutely.
Dunn: Right.
Boney: So I backtracked and I came up with meeting with Marshall King. He was a veterinarian at the Beechwood Animal Clinic. I met with him…
Dunn: Now is he a friend of yours?
Boney: I mean, he’s a family veterinarian. He does, he’s a vet.
Dunn: So, you, you took an animal there or something?
Boney: Regularly.
Dunn: Ok, and what kind of animal did you take there that day?
Boney: I didn’t take an animal there.
Dunn: Ok, so you just stopped by to see him?
Boney: Yeah, I had a request for him. If he, when you talk to him, he’ll tell you what that request was.
Dunn: What was that request?
Boney: He’ll let you know what that request was.
Dunn: I mean, is it to reconstruct, I guess what I’m trying to think is, how is he going to recall that specific day there, Charles?
Boney: Because he’s gonna say that he remembers me asking him for a loan or to cosign for me.
Dunn: Ok, so that’s you what did there.
Boney: Yeah, in order to improve my credit.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: That’s exactly what he’s going to say.
Dunn: And you were trying to get a loan at that time?
Boney: Unintelligible. You know, to…
Dunn: Had you already applied for a loan?
Boney: No, because I didn’t think that my credit would have been good enough to go to an institution.
Dunn: Ok. So, so there wouldn’t be any paperwork as far as whatever dates that you were trying to get a loan.
Boney: That’s correct. And, that particular day, he said that their were two people that I might want to go and see. So I asked him who those two people were, he said the first person would be Reverend Hodge from the Howard Chapel Baptist Church, you could get a loan from the bank, what do they call that, the church fund or whatever.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: I told him I didn’t have a really good relationship with Reverend Hodge, not that I had a bad one, but I just didn’t really know him like that.
Dunn: Now, where’s the Howard Chapel Church?
Boney: Howard Chapel is located on, it’s in New Albany. Anyway, I didn’t deal with Howard Chapel, so that’s insignificant.
Dunn: Ok, ok.
Boney: So anyway, we came across another individual, his name is Reverend Mimms. He’s the pastor of, of the Second Street Baptist Church and I was told how to get in contact with him from Marshall King, so I got his address. Uh, actually, just the phone number, when I called the phone number, Reverend Mimms told me what his address was and it’s Wingate Apartments across from the new Kroger in New Albany off of Charlestown Road.
Dunn: Who, who was living out there again?
Boney: Reverend Mimms, and his wife. So I went out there that evening and the times are unknown to me. I don’t know if it was 5:00 or 5:30 or 6:00, I don’t know. I don’t know exactly.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: I just know that it was, you know, starting to get dark. Okay? So, I went out to his home and I asked him if it was possible to get a loan through the church and he told me that he would have to ask his elders and he asked me, are you working? I said, yes, sir. He says what day are your paydays? I said Friday. He said, well, you know, tomorrow’s Friday. You know cause this is the 28th, so he’s like well, tomorrow’s Friday.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: Aren’t you getting paid tomorrow? I was like, yes, sir, I said but I have to pay my uncle you know, towards the Cadillac and I’ll be short and there’s things I need to take care of.
Dunn: But your uncle was in Evansville, though, right?
Boney: That is correct.
Dunn: How were you going to pay him that night?
Boney: Money order. I mean, when that man says, I want my money, he wants his money or he would come and get the car. It’s that simple. I even sent him money Western Union.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: Uh, and there was one day that I actually took the money all the way down there to make sure that he got it.
Dunn: Ok, but this particular evening how did you pay him?
Boney: I didn’t, I wouldn’t have paid him that particular evening because Friday hadn’t come yet.
Dunn: Oh, Ok, so he didn’t get any money that evening?
Boney: No, because Friday, Friday is payday. Stay with me.
Dunn: Ok, no, you’re right, I was little bit ahead of you, go ahead.
Boney: Ok, so anyway its, uhh, you know, uhh, a situation where I’m talking with Mimms and I’m asking him, you know, is there anyway you can help me? So his wife was there and he was there, so both of them can recall, uhh. I just asked him, you know, if there was any way the elders of the church could come up with a way for me to…..
Dunn: How much were you trying to get there Charles?
Boney: I was, I was open…just like two or three hundred. Because my check would have been more than three hundred, you know and I was wanting to pay him back the next week. That way, I could take care of everything and then just pay him back the following week.
Dunn: I see. So uhh…

Mala’s Uncle (Joe)

Boney: In the meantime, in the meantime, Mala’s uncle is the owner of the the King’s Restaurants so you know, she basically got some money from him.
Dunn: I see.
Boney: And she, uhh, did what she had to do to give him the information as to what it was for because there was no way he was just going to give me money and the guy knew I was fresh out of prison.
Dunn: What’s Mala’s uncle’s name?
Boney: His name’s Joe. Last name, umm, well, you’ll know cause he’s the owner of King’s.
Dunn: Ok. Uhh so did she get the money that night?
Boney: For me? Yes.
Dunn: So on the night of the 28th is when she got that money?
Boney: We did get that money.
Dunn: Ok, from Joe. Was it cash or check or what?
Boney: No, I mean we got cash and she already had some cash.
Dunn: And how much was it did she get?

Mala got $150

Boney: She got like $150 and I already had fifty so I had more than enough to pay my uncle the next day and take care of the other stuff plus keep in mind my mom needed money to, to continue to stay there as well.
Dunn: I see. Ok, so that was on September 29th that you got that money.
Boney: No, I got, I got money, my money came the next day.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: But I got money that night.
Dunn: Ok, from Mala, ok, from Joe. Did you have to sign a promissory note or anything like that?
Boney: Of course not, I didn’t, I wasn’t involved.
Dunn: And then, and then the next day is when you paid your uncle. Is that right?
Boney: I sent a money order off.
Dunn: Ok, where’d you get that money order?
Boney: I have no idea. You’re asking me a question I couldn’t possibly remember. I’d have to really just think.
Dunn: Where, where would you normally have gotten those?
Boney: Various places Kroger, never from the bank or anything like that, Kroger, uhh, uhh, BP’s anything like that. Wherever they have money.
Dunn: Well, well, that would really help you know as far as you know determining the timeline. How much did you have to pay your uncle?
Boney: He, honestly, set it up pay what you can, you know, like if you can pay you know 75, 100 whatever, but my mom was top priority. I wanted to make sure she got something towards rent each week.
Dunn: Yeah. How much were you paying her?
Boney: It varied. But usually like 100, 150.
Dunn: Ok, so your uncle, you may give him $100 a month maybe $200?
Boney: It could be a hundred it could be 2 or down to 75.
Dunn: What, what was the cost of the car?
Boney: Uhh, 2000.
Dunn: And so did you ever get the title to it?
Boney: Yes, I did. Eventually I got the title to it.
Dunn: Ok, but and did you have insurance on that?
Boney: Yes, I did.
Dunn: Ok, do you recall who you had insurance on it with?
Boney: Uhh, State Farm, in New Albany, Jim Bittner.
Dunn: Jim Bittner here in…..
Boney: Bob Bittner, Bob Bittner, here in New Albany, on Grantline Road.
Dunn: Ok, uhh, alright uhh, and then, then, so after the Mimms you said you had three or four sets who would have been after the Mimms that could have verified where you were?

Took Mala to sister

Boney: I took Mala over to my, well, my sister was married to James Carter, her, her maiden name or her maiden name’s Jones and then she became a Carter and then from there she’s a Riggs now, this is her second marriage.
Dunn: Ok, she was married to James Carter?
Boney: She was married to…
Dunn: That’s what I say, right… and uhh where is he living?
Boney: In Louisville, Kentucky, on 32nd Street at the time and uhh, this particular, uhh, day I remember very well because I took Mala over to their home to introduce…
Dunn: Was it that evening or….? What, what time was it Charles?
Boney: Yes. That’s one thing, I mean it was, it was in the evening, but I don’t know exactly what time, I don’t know it was 6:30, it was after Mimms, though.
Dunn: Ok, but you’re quite sure that was on September 28th?
Boney: I’m, I’m positive. All three, all three of those events, those sets of people occurred.
Dunn: I see.
Boney: And the other, the only other people that I, ok, specifically on this, uhh, I stopped over on 32nd Street and I seen, umm James and his wife Nancy…
Dunn: James?
Boney: Carter
Dunn: Oh, this is his current one. Ok, Ok.
Boney: James and his wife Nancy and uhh there were, umm, maybe one or two other people there, and I don’t remember, and I don’t, you know, it’s up to them to when you question them, if, as to…
Dunn: Did he recall that evening that you were there, James?
Boney: He can recall, yes.
Dunn: Have you talked to him about that?
Boney: I’ve, I’ve talked to, umm, I haven’t, uhh, talked to reverend Mimms and I still continue to take, uhh, the dog to, uhh, the Beechwood ….

Boney location at time of murder

Dunn: Where the real critical ones, of course, are not the veterinarian or is not Reverend Mimms, uhh, the critical ones are, of course, you know, after uhh, 7:00 of course, which is when the Camm family was murdered and before uhh 9:25 or so…that, that two hour and twenty-five minute time frame. As we sit here today, what’s your recollection on where you were during that timeframe on Thursday September 28th of 2000?
Boney: When I was at James’s house it was dark outside, and so I’m thinking that I would have been there realistically at around 7, 7:15, 7:30. I wouldn’t have stayed more than an hour.

Mala could verify

Dunn: Now, Mala could verify this too?
Boney: Absolutely, because she was with me.
Dunn: And you don’t know where she is now?
Boney: They’re working on it.
Dunn: I know, but you don’t know?
Boney: No, I, I mean these are, this is a girlfriend from the past.
Dunn: Well, I understand but…..
Boney: I’ve been told not to contact anyone, because what it does, it looks like you’re orchestrating, you know, the events.
Dunn: No, I understand contacting is one thing. Finding out where they are is quite another.
Boney: Yeah, but I, I’ve been asked not to do anything because it looks like you’re orchestrating stuff. People are going to say what they can truly remember and if you try to induce it in any way then it looks like an orchestration, so I’m not going to do that.
Dunn: Yeah, huh, uhh how about uhh, so the answer is, after you left uhh and this is your, your uhh sister Jennifer and her husband James Carter living on 32nd Street back in September of 2000….
Boney: But Jennifer wasn’t living there. They’re divorced. That’s…..
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: Ok, see, let me make something very clear before you can even let me finish, you’re asking me other questions.
Dunn: My apologies.
Boney: Let me, let me make something very clear. My sister and James are divorced. He’s remarried to a woman named Nancy. They’re living on 32nd Street. Now, from there, I visit them with Mala to introduce them to a women of color because they was like, oh, you finally got you a women of color. It’s a joke, cause I’ve had nothing but white women.
Dunn: I see. Ok.
Boney: Ok, so they were looking at me like, oh, you finally got a woman of color. That’s why I remember that night so well.
Dunn: I see, so but, and, and then, of course, I’m skeptical here because you had met Mala, you said immediately after you got out of prison.
Boney: That is correct. Pretty much.
Dunn: But it took you three months before you introduced her to James and his wife?
Boney: There was no need for, I mean this man wasn’t an everyday part of my life. We visited him that day.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: And my hope was also to ask him if he could help me out. That’s, that was my whole purpose of being over there.
Dunn: Ok, did he?
Boney: He could not. He could not help me out.
Dunn: Ok, did you ever get any money that day? Other than from uhh Mala’s….
Boney: From Joe.
Dunn: Ok, and that was it.
Boney: That came through Mala.
Dunn: And how did she get it that day?
Boney: She got it from Joe.
Dunn: When did she get it that day?
Boney: She would have gotten it, uhh, I’d say realistically prior to like 8 or 9:00.
Dunn: But, but she was with you when you went to the Carter residence right?
Boney: That is correct.
Dunn: So she would have had to have gotten it before you all left to go to the Carter residence?
Boney: No, it was after.
Dunn: So she got it after?
Boney: I wouldn’t have had to go to the Carter residence if we had the money.
Dunn: Ok, that’s what I’m asking, so, so then after the Carter residence, you then went to, did you go with her to Joe’s?
Boney: I had to. She didn’t have a car. I was her transportation.
Dunn: Ok, so you then went with her after that to get, what Joe could potentially then be an alibi witness too, then.
Boney: Potentially.
Dunn: Ok, uhh, and, and Joe, how many times did you borrow money from Joe?
Boney: I’ve never borrowed money from Joe.
Dunn: How many times did she borrow money to your knowledge?
Boney: I wouldn’t be able to honestly under, you know ….
Dunn: Well, when she was living with you?
Boney: Once again, I don’t know what she does. I just asked her to do that, that one time for our sake. Because everything that she borrowed benefited both of us.
Dunn: Yeah, oh, that’s yours.
Boney: Yep, just a second.
Dunn: Well, I tell you what we can do, we’ll stop all of these at the same time here, buddy.

End of tape number three.

Boney: Alright we’re back in business.
Dunn: Alright, here let me, uh, we’ve stopped here for a moment to change tapes on all three things here, haven’t we? So you ready to roll again here?
Boney: Yes, sir, my recorder is rolling.
Dunn: Ok, great, thank you.
Dunn: Alright, so we’re talking about, uhh, your uhh, potential alibis for that evening including Joe, and you don’t know Joe’s last name?
Boney: No, not right off the, I mean, I’m thinking it’s Singh.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: I mean, her name’s Mala Singh so, once again when you investigate, there’s only one Joe that owns those King’s Restaurants, so when you talk to them……
Dunn: Did you ever meet him?
Boney: Yeah, yeah
Dunn: I’m sure you did. What kind of guy was he?
Boney: Uhhh, all about business, pretty straight forward kind of guy, you know, down to earth uhhh the type of individual that’s thinking more about money then anything else.
Dunn: Ok, uhh did you have to pay interest on that money, do you recall?
Boney: First and foremost, uhh, let me remind you I didn’t borrow the money.
Dunn: Well, I understand but she borrowed it on your behalf to some degree.
Boney: Yeah, but she didn’t say that it was for me so, uhh, he wouldn’t charge his niece interest.
Dunn: I see. Ok. Alright. And she was still working there at the time.
Boney: Yes.
Dunn: Ok. How was she getting to work?
Boney: Sometimes me, but sometimes you know, other family members.
Dunn: Ok, do you recall what hours she was working?
Boney: Uhh, it varied. I don’t I don’t really remember for sure. That’s that’s something that I’d have to.
Dunn: You were still working at Anderson’s?
Boney: Yes.
Dunn: And how long did you work there?
Boney: Uhh, til May of 2001.
Dunn: Ok, and you left there for other opportunities, or why’d you leave there?
Boney: Well, I met Amber at a strip club where she was working, I mean this lady you know makes anywhere from $350 to $500 a night, yeah, doing the night life…
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: …and my basic thing that I do so well is clean and cook and stuff like that, and she just wanted a house husband. Eventually we got married that year.

Quit seeing Mala

Dunn: Oh, Ok, so how, when did you and Mala quit seeing one another?
Boney: 2001
Dunn: And it was right before you met, uh.
Boney: Way before, like I quit seeing Mala realistically around like January of 2001. I met Amber in May 2001.

Mala purchased a car for you?

Dunn: Ok, so Mala never purchased a car for you?
Boney: Purchased a car?
Dunn: Bought a car for you?
Boney: What do you, I mean, I don’t understand.
Dunn: I understand.
Boney: She helped me with a couple of payments.
Dunn: But, but she never bought a car for you?
Boney: No. No.

How did you use Stan Faith

Dunn: Ok. And how about, I gotta ask you this question, cause this you know strange indeed and answer if you will. How did you wind up using Stan Faith as an attorney for a case in Monroe County?
Boney: Uh, we had Patrick Renn, Patrick Renn didn’t have an Indiana license, though, or something though, or he does have an Indiana license.
Dunn: I guess instead of an attorney in Monroe County cause they’re, they’re thick up there as you might imagine.
Boney: Well, the, the only attorney I knew up in Monroe County would have been Sam Shapiro and the rates for Sam Shapiro, I mean, I don’t think I could have afforded those kind of rates.
Dunn: Yeah, yeah. Have you ever met Faith before?
Boney: My mother’s known him for a long time, so.
Dunn: She’s used him then, for some type of civil suits or whatever?
Boney: I don’t think so, I think they just knew each other.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: You know, she campaigned for him as well, too.
Dunn: I see. Ok. So you just picked his name out of the book or suggestion of your mother or…
Boney: I mean, if you I mean like for example my, the lawyer that I chose was former prosecutor Nick Stein. Nick Stein was my original lawyer. I would have went with him again, but he’s no longer doing defense, he’s doing malpractice and…
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: …you know, negligence and cases and stuff.
Dunn: Ok. And of course, the next question would be, is that, did your name, nickname ever come up with Stan Faith?
Boney: No.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: I mean no one, I don’t talk about prison stuff any more.
Dunn: Ok, so you don’t use that nickname anymore?
Boney: No.
Dunn: Use any nickname?
Boney: No. I’m just Charles Boney.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: This Backbone character that’s just a prison thing. When I left, I’m just Charles Boney.
Dunn: Yeah, ok. So since you hooked up with Amber, have you been working at all?
Boney: Absolutely.
Dunn: And up until when did you get these three jobs? Without going into detail.
Boney: Well, when I was Amber I worked for TC Imports which is an independent distributorship and they gave me really good selling skills. I was already a pretty decent salesperson. I left TC Imports in 2002, specifically, September of 2002, and I started working for, uh, I took two months and I started working for J.D. Byrider as a car salesman in November of 2002. I was top salesman then for December and January and March in 2003. And, uh, I left there and I sold cars at Oxmoor Toyota and…
Dunn: Let me back up here, Charles if you would. So you and Amber, you and Amber split in January of 2001. Is that right?
Boney: No, that’s no, we didn’t know each other in January 2001.
Dunn: I’m, I’m, I’m talking Mala. My apologies. You and Mala split in January of 2001.
Boney: Approximately.
Dunn: Ok, and I understand.
Boney: I’m just saying approximately. That way I get to stay honest.
Dunn: No, I understand and I’m not holding you down to the hour and the minute, I mean.
Boney: Approximately 2001. And I meet Amber for sure, May 2001.
Dunn: Ok, May, 2001. And you’re a house husband or whatever you want to call it there, for how long then?
Boney: During the course of our marriage. And our marriage ended, I’d say officially December 2003, you know.
Dunn: When did you guys get married?
Boney: October the 23rd 2001.
Dunn: And where’d you guys get married?
Boney: Actually, this is, the Louisville Zoo. Ok, I know it sounds crazy, but that’s true.
Boney: Oh, no, it sounds good to me. And so you’re married to her. So where are you living from October 2001 till whenever?
Boney: In Louisville. 1031 East Oak.
Dunn: Ok, and who are you working for at that time? After you cease being a house husband, who do you work for?
Boney: I went to work later for TC Imports as I said before.
Dunn: Ok, and that was after October?
Boney: Yes. I started in 2002.
Dunn: You know when?
Boney: February. February 2002, I’m working for TC Imports. I leave TC Imports September of 2002. I get a job at J.D. Byrider as a car salesman, November of 2002, and I stay there until May, 2003.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: Then I went to Oxmoor Toyota on Shelbyville Road and worked, and then from there I went to Slone Suzuki.
Dunn: Let me back up. Oxmoor Toyota, was it right after J.D. Byrider?
Boney: Yes. I was just trying to test out the market.
Dunn: Sure.
Boney: Market myself and see what I would be…
Dunn: So you’re at the Toyota place from May until when?
Boney: No, I didn’t start in May. I started, oh, man, I’d say June.
Dunn: Ok, June of 03 until…
Boney: I only lasted a month there.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: And then I went to Slone Suzuki which was, I guess September or whatever. September of 2003.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: And then, I only lasted about a month there. I wasn’t successful. The market, I wasn’t good at their market. I was better at the Byrider cars, the used cars, but new cars it was very difficult to sell. The market, I mean, I was going hungry. There was no way I would survive.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: You know, I wasn’t that good at it.
Dunn: And where are you living at this time?
Boney: 1031 East Oak Street.
Dunn: Is that an apartment house or is that…
Boney: No, it’s a house.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: 1031 East Oak, and then I got a job at Rent Way Rent to Own.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: And then from there, I was arrested.
Dunn: When was that? Rent Way Rent to Own until when?
Boney: I got a job late November to early December and I kept it all the way until I was arrested for the EPO situation but it didn’t have anything to do with that. It was a violation of probation. There was a warrant waiting for me and she called, of course, Bloomington and let them know that I would be in court with her for a EPO charge so this would be the opportune time for you to go ahead and…
Dunn: Is that how that happened?
Boney: Absolutely, she admitted it. It, it was ugly. I mean she wanted to really, really, you know, get me back.
Dunn: What do you think she had such a, would you call it a grudge?
Boney: Uh, David Camm and I have one thing in common, just one thing at least. First and foremost he’s a guy that can get more than one girl, so am I. And the only difference is, I don’t have an ego about it, you know, I don’t get off on trying to get as many girls as I can get. Honestly, I want to be faithful to the woman that I’m with now, and I do love her and you know, but I do have a past with multiple females, you know.
Dunn: At the same time or just…?
Boney: Multiple females, yeah. You know, going from one to the next trying to get an idea of who I want to stay with or whatever. Bottom line is, if you’re not happy, keep moving.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: You know, it’s you know, like I say, you know, it doesn’t make me look like a star in a woman’s eyes, you know, they’ll think, ok, he’s a dog, he’s a player, whatever, but bottom line is, I’ve always had my fair share of, of women. You know, that’s why I don’t have rape cases or anything like that. I have attractive women that I can be with if I decide to.
Dunn: Yeah, I’m sure that doesn’t please some women though, like you said though, huh?
Boney: Well, bottom line is, in all honesty, a person that can’t commit to one woman lacks manhood. The whole idea, the whole concept, God’s plan is for one man to be with one woman and if you’re not in the realm of that, of course, you are making a mistake.
Dunn: Is that for a length of time or is that just one woman at a time and then move on?
Boney: Well, I mean, in all honesty, I have cheated before, I mean, you know, there’s no way I would deny that because, as the case opens up and someone comes forward say, oh I slept with him when he was married or whatever.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: You know, I mean, I’ve got to accept that, you know, as part of what’s going on, so I’m not gonna leave, I’m not gonna allow you or anyone else to set something up for me for me to lie about and then…
Dunn: Oh, no, I’m, I’m not, hell, you’re being very honest, no one is suggesting otherwise.

Cheater and adulterer

Boney: I’m a cheater and I’ve cheated and, and I’m an adulterer. I’ve done those things. Everything that I’ve ever done I’ve had the ability to…

Domestic violence, Amber

Dunn: How, how, Charles, how about violence toward women…is there an issue there?
Boney: I wouldn’t call it an issue, but yes, I’m guilty of it.
Dunn: How many times?
Boney: Well, I mean, I did, I hit my wife. I did hit her, but see the thing is no matter what she did to me and I promised her that I wouldn’t bad mouth her or talk about her in any way cause we’ve talked recently. In fact, I’ve talked to her, you can check my phone records she calls me every day.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: Every day.
Dunn: Is she still in love with you?


Boney: I don’t think she’s in love with me, I think she cares very deeply for me and she cares about what might happen to me concerning this case because she knows that I’m a certain type of person, but a murderer, no. Am I violent? Do I have a temper? Uh, if you were to call me a nigger for example, would I put by dukes up? I’m the type of guy now I could walk away. I could say, man, I, uh I’m scared of niggers too. A nigger is an ignorant person to me, not necessarily a black person. There’s white niggers, too. So, there’s things that don’t bother me like they used to bother me. Somebody could say something about my mother and I’d say hey, my mom fights better than I do, and I could laugh and walk away…
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: …but someone has a weapon in your presence or someone is pointing a knife at you and asking you, you know, have you cheated on me while you’re just waking up from, you know, your nap or waking up from that morning’s sleep. Then, you know, that’s a different story.
Dunn: Yeah.

Hot grease

Boney: So bottom line is, if she’s honest enough to talk about the accounts like the hot grease thing where she took all that hot grease and got it all hot and then had it right over the bed getting ready to throw it on me. All those types of things. If she can talk about that, then you know…
Dunn: Yeah, so it was a volatile relationship, at times? .

Volatile relationship, police called more than once

Boney: I will be honest with you. I never feared for my life and she can’t honestly say that she ever feared for hers because every time that we went through something, even when the police would come and ask us, you know like, the last time they came to the house and they said this house is a pretty nice house but I noticed that that’s out of place, it’s broke. Who broke that? And she was like, I did. Did she throw it at you? And you know, I’m not one to tell the police anything, especially if I’m not in the hot seat. I have no choice but to be honest now and tell my story but in that situation, I covered for her because she would have been arrested then, you know. They could have arrested her for domestic violence. Throwing stuff at me, that’s an assault.
Dunn: Sure.
Boney: I wanted to protect her.

Domestic violence, Darci

Dunn: How, how about anybody other than Amber, that you had any violence toward as far as women?
Boney: The only, I mean my very first wife Darci and I went a round or two. We had the pushing and like pulling of hair, and her doing stuff to me, which like I say, I’m not going to bad mouth her. Women do things out of anger all the time. A man is supposed to be, you know, big enough to just walk away or say ok, I’m just going to forget you did that, but with me, I struck back.
Dunn: What, and Darci lives in Bloomington?
Boney: That is correct.
Dunn: And as you well know we would like to talk to everybody we could. You still talk with Darci?
Boney: No.
Dunn: You do not?
Boney: No.
Dunn: You know where she lives?
Boney: I’m assuming she just still lives in Bloomington.
Dunn: How do you get money for child support to her?
Boney: They take it out of my check.
Dunn: At various places.
Boney: They, they, they take it out of my check and bottom line is, uh, you know, the IRS has my social security number so I don’t get tax returns. All that stuff goes to him.
Dunn: Yeah. Boney: You know, cause the arrearage builds up in prison.
Dunn: Yeah, yeah, I would imagine it would build up quite a bit.
Boney: Yes, after seven and half years it was quite, quite a lot.
Dunn: How about, I’m curious about Mala again. Other than Joe, how would we try and find her? Where did she live when you first met her?
Boney: She lived off of Cane Run Road. There’s some apartments, I think there’re called Saddlebrook, Saddlebrook Apartments, and that’s the only think I know about her, for sure.
Dunn: When was the last time you saw her?
Boney: January of 2001.
Dunn: Was that break up amicable or was she upset or you upset or…
Boney: No, I mean, it wasn’t a situation where you know, I was thinking that maybe I’d see her again. We left on pretty good terms but she did have someone else in mind…
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: …and she was also pregnant with another man’s child.
Dunn: Well, that could cause a break up, couldn’t it?
Boney: Well, like I say, I was with her while, I was with her while she was pregnant. I just didn’t know that she was pregnant. As the baby started to show, you know, that became an issue.
Dunn: Did she acknowledge it was another man’s child?
Boney: It was obvious that it was another man’s child. Yeah. She didn’t have to.

Perfect alibi

Dunn: Ok. How about so, and again she could be a pretty good alibi witness for you.
Boney: She would be the perfect, the second perfect alibi.
Dunn: The first perfect would be?
Boney: I mean, James and Nancy and a couple of guests that they had in their house but I don’t remember.
Dunn: Oh they had guests in their house too?
Boney: Oh yeah, I just don’t remember, like I say when you talk to them…
Dunn: They a black couple? Ok?
Boney: Yes. They can tell you, uh, what is the significance of whether there’re white or black? I just have to ask because…
Dunn: I’ll tell you why is because when we go talk to them its like well there’s a couple here and its not uncommon question oh what kind of couple. Was it teenagers, was it white, black, I mean.
Boney: Oh, James is in his 60s and Nancy is in her late 50s.
Dunn: Yeah, I mean, that’s all, I’m sure he’s entertained people in his house before, may or may not be white, hell, I don’t know. You know, may or may not be a black couple, I don’t know. You know, that’s all. It’s nothing any racial, just as far as who was there that night, cause that may jog their memory you know.
Boney: Yes, sir.
Dunn: That’s all.
Boney: Well, I just wanted to you know just get an understanding of where you was going with that, but anyway I feel that James and Nancy and any guests that would have remembered meeting Mala and Reverend Mimms because if, of the time, you know, the time frame from Reverend Mimms. I know I was at the veterinarian place, Marshall King’s at about 2:00. It was day time.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: You know it was light, a lot of light.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: Mimms, I’m not for sure. I’m, I’m, you know like I say, I gave an approximation, I’m thinking, somewhere around 5:00-5:30 something like that and then I know…
Dunn: Was Mala with you then?
Boney: She was out in the car…
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: …with Mimms and them, yes.
Dunn: Nobody else was with you and Mala though?
Boney: No. .
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: No.
Dunn: Alright, how about, I gotta ask you, you know, this has been a, you know, a question obviously that’s weighed heavy on a lot of people’s mind, and you, you offered a theory about the sweatshirt about why it could have been left there, the weather and stuff like that. Uh, as far as the motive behind this, but the motive behind shooting and killing the children. Do you have any thoughts about that as to why they were shot and killed?
Boney: Am I allowed to speak freely?
Dunn: Sure.
Boney: Completely freely. Cuss words and everything?
Dunn: Absolutely.
Boney: This is my take on it. Anyone who could kill a kid is a dirty rotten motherfucker. It’s that simple.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: Anyone that would do anything to my kids, touch them in any way, or, if I, it doesn’t have to be my kids, it could be anybody’s kids, I would become a violent person.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: I did stuff to people while I was in prison, you know. I took a guy’s TV, I shared it with them already, I took a guy’s TV, I took their commissary. I wouldn’t let a child molester have anything.
Dunn: That’s who this guy was, was a molester?
Boney: Who?
Dunn: The guy whose TV you took.
Boney: Yes. In prison. This particular person was found guilty, we read the articles. I mean it wasn’t like, ok, maybe he did it. It was a situation where he took pleaded. He took a plea bargain.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: Personally, I wouldn’t take a plea bargain to anything unless I was guilty of it.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: Like, for example, if I had done these murders and you guys said ok I’m gonna give you a plea bargain, you’ll just get thirty years and you can get out. I’d be like no. Either put a fuckin’ needle in my arm or I’m not guilty. It’s that simple…
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: …because this is a capital murder case, Ok? 195 years wouldn’t even be enough for me.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: Either kill me or set me free. It’s that simple.
Dunn: Why do you think Charles, why do think that Kim female, Jill female were both shot in the head and Brad was not shot in the head?
Boney: I have no idea.
Dunn: Do you think it was animosity towards females? I mean, is that, I, I, obviously that’s one of the questions that’s weighed heavy on a lot of people’s minds. Any ideas, any thoughts about that?
Boney: I never once thought about it. This is something that, you know, I’ve never thought about personally.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: I doesn’t matter how a person is shot and killed. These are kids, these are two beautiful kids. David Camm had a beautiful, you know, a beautiful family.
Dunn: Absolutely
Boney: You know, I see them on TV. I’ve seen them this morning. You know on TV. I seen the mother and two children. Bottom line is, I didn’t do this. If David Camm didn’t do it, there’s still a killer out there.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: I told you on the phone, that if there’s that unknown female’s DNA. If the key to this case is that and both of us are excluded, you know, that would be a beautiful day, but I know your motivation. Your motivation is, as you say, to find the truth.
Dunn: Absolutely.
Boney: But your truth is also about, you know, getting David free.
Dunn: That’s not true and I take issue with you there. I really would. Ok. Do I, have I looked at the evidence and do I have an opinion? Absolutely, I have an opinion. And I’ve shared that opinion in open court. That’s not a problem, but that was not my motivation. My motivation obviously is to try and investigate and to find as much as I can and as we sit, when we sit down here. Obviously, now you’re a player and a key player in this to some degree. Either directly, as either you were there, or indirectly that your garment showed up there. I mean, that’s, I think we can all agree with that. Is that right? And that’s not, you know, that’s not anything other than the, the very direct blatant truth of the matter and once again I’d be derelict if I wasn’t talking to you and I appreciate you taking the time.
Boney: And the one thing that I mean I’ve seen and heard about, you know, I mean, when I say seen, talked about, reading the newspaper, watching news segments, things of that nature. Blood spatter evidence. You and I talked about that, you know, while we’re on tape. You and I talked about blood spatter and the significance of that, uh, blood spatter doesn’t just happen, you have to pretty much be there.
Dunn: If that’s what it is. And, then, blood spatter is an opinion and, of course, you know, experts will disagree and experts did disagree on his garment, this, the T-shirt as to whether or not it was blood spatter. And there’s a whole raft of other questions there too but which I won’t go into but, anyway. One of the questions I got, you followed this case to some degree, right, if not daily but you followed it to some degree?
Boney: Well, it’s hard, you know, like I say, I do work multiple jobs so when I see the news, it’s not like a sit down and eat popcorn, oooh, I can’t wait to…
Dunn: But back then you weren’t working multiple jobs and then, back in 2002, I think you indicated you’re only working one job, weren’t you?
Boney: TC Imports until..
Dunn: Yeah, and speaking of that, cause, what did I do with that, anyway, the point being that clearly, I mean everybody down here, yeah, TC Imports right…
Boney: Everyone is aware of the case.
Dunn: And my question would be, the Backbone sweatshirt, that was not a state secret, I mean that was publicized and well publicized at that time. Were you aware that there was a Backbone sweatshirt found out there?
Boney: I’ve been asked that question, I think now this is like the third or fourth time, especially from the news people and first asked by the prosecution. If I was aware that there was anything that I could have been related to, I asked Mr. Kessinger, I was like, you know, if it was you would you have turned yourself in. First and foremost is the question that I have not heard my name Backbone on a sweatshirt or anything I think I would be related to the case. That’s the truth.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: And I asked, you know, a couple of individuals, you know, if your name has been brought up, a nickname or something that you think might tie you into something, but yet no ones ever come to you or included you in it, you’re not officially a part of the case, you know would you be, I guess I should say would you have the backbone to come forth and say, hey I hope this isn’t me, but my name and this, that, and other is presented in this article when I was reading it or would you just keep quiet and be a coward.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: You know what I’m saying.
Dunn: So….
Boney: And I asked, I asked two specific individuals what they would do and their exact answers each of them, said I don’t know. And so, you know.
Dunn: What would you have done?
Boney: You know, I’m gonna be honest too. I don’t know. I don’t know what I would have done. I really don’t know.
Dunn: So you may or may not have…
Boney: Well you gotta look at it from, look at where I’m at now. I’m in the middle of this, prior to today and actually last night at 11:00, 11:08 to be exact, prior to being identified as the, the owner, previous owner of the sweatshirt, no one else in this community except the people working this case knew about me. You didn’t learn about me til Friday. Ms. Liell didn’t learn about me til Friday. Carrie Harned, I guess I learned about me Thursday.
Dunn: How did she learn about you?
Boney: That’s something I guess you’ll have to find out. Media has ways of finding stuff out.
Dunn: Well, she’s not saying, of course.
Boney: The media has their ways of finding out.
Dunn: Yeah, I understand.
Boney: Bottom line is, everybody has their own interpretations of this prior to it actually, you know, coming out. I’ve had plenty of time to just say ok, I need to get out of here, or I need to just run or get away from here or whatever. There’s no where to run to and there’s no need to run. And to be honest with you and I’m gonna say this on public record…
Dunn: Sure.
Boney: …if I had done these crimes there’s only one of two things that I would do. I would have either killed myself, because my mom is 67 years old and I’ve got to watch her health deteriorate and keep in mind Mr. Camm has a mother too, right.
Dunn: Absolutely.
Boney: And a dad or what have you.
Dunn: Both of whom are in ill health, yeah.
Boney: So, you know, it took a toll on his people’s lives too. So I empathize with him as well, but you know concerning me, specifically, I’m looking at all these things unfold and the people that are looking at me that don’t look at me the same, that type of thing. When I got to work, you know, the looks or did you do it or could you have done it or what part did you play in this, if any?
Dunn: Well, Charles, why, as you told me the other day that you’re gonna talk with several other media outlets, tomorrow, I guess, right?
Boney: No, not tomorrow.
Dunn: I thought it was Tuesday you were gonna do that.
Boney: Well Tuesday is a funeral that I’m going to.
Dunn: Oh, ok, but some time in the future you said you were going to do that.
Boney: I haven’t made up my mind exactly…
Dunn: I thought the other night you said that you were.
Boney: I said that, I said something in that area.
Dunn: Why, why did you want, why did you agree to talk to Wave TV?
Boney: Honestly?
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: Ok. If an individual doesn’t want to talk, looks like you’re hiding something to me.
Dunn: Really?
Boney: Yeah. I mean like, for example, you know, if I mean David Camm himself if I recall was on television and he gave an account of, of the day or the night before or whatever, that Friday when all the news really broke everybody was watching it or whatever. So you know, he wasn’t afraid to say something. Once he was arrested, I never seen any interviews. Except for what the Indiana State Police and stuff has locked away in their little files and stuff on him but you know that stuff wasn’t public record. He never came out and said, hey I’d like to give them an account of my innocence. He never just spoke out and obviously because his defense attorney probably told him, hey, this would’t be a wise thing to do.
Dunn: You offered an opinion about his innocence or guilt the other night. As we set here today what’s you’re thoughts about that?
Boney: I have no comment whatsoever about his innocence or guilt. The only thing that I’m worried about right now is the truth and that, you know, although it’s not my family, it’s still two beautiful kids and a woman that…

End of tape number four.

Dunn: This thing is cycling around. Ah, this is…here we go.
Boney: Alright, you ready?
Dunn: No, yeah, you go ahead.
Boney: Ok.
Dunn: There you go, buddy, you rolling, now?
Boney: Yeah, we’re back in business.
Dunn: Ok, here we go again. I was asking you to comment about the guilt or innocence, at least in your mind, of David Camm, and your thoughts again were what?
Boney: Uh, my main thing that I would say about that, the State has its evidence of, that put him there. The defense says that they have evidence that may not be as conclusive to put him there and now there is evidence against me such that an individual garment that I once owned, that I gave to the Salvation Army, appears at the crime scene, where three innocent were, you know murdered, Ok? So that bothers me. I have a family of my own.
Dunn: And how many kids do you have?
Boney: I have one biologically.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: And then, right now I have a 13 and a 7 year old. 13 year old and a 7 year old.
Dunn: Those are Amber’s?
Boney: No, this is another young lady.
Dunn: Ok, and who are you currently dating?
Boney: I won’t say.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: That’s, that’s something, that’s…
Dunn: I understand.
Boney: …they know.
Dunn: Ok. That, that, that’s fine.
Boney: I am going to do everything in my power to, anyone that wants to speak with them umm on the prosecutions side I don’t have a problem with it, but I have to protect everything in my life right now.
Dunn: I, I fully understand.
Boney: Because the bottom line is, lets say, for example you guys, I mean I have to assume that you guys are hoping that you find something with me so that you can exonerate this man. You got to admit that.
Dunn: Well, either with you or associated with your sweatshirt, sure. I mean, because this is a major break, I think you would agree with that.
Boney: Absolutely.
Dunn: I mean because it was either you or someone that had your sweatshirt who was there at that scene.
Boney: Or it was David Camm.
Dunn: Then he would have had your sweatshirt then. That would have fallen in the second category. So, it is either or, would you agree, I mean it is either you or someone else.
Boney: So, we talked about some of the theories, and some of the theories that I personally thought of was not only the temperature of the day that we talked about, and whether a person would have a sweatshirt, things of that nature.
Dunn: Right.

Powder burns

Boney: If a person, if the, if the killer was wearing the sweatshirt wouldn’t there be powder burns, or some type of residue, or some type of blood spatter.
Dunn: No, that wouldn’t necessarily have to be the case at all. And, because if the sweatshirt was removed prior to the shooting.
Boney: Yeah, in that light.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: And are you aware that there are possibly more that just my DNA and the DNA of an unknown female on the sweatshirt?


Dunn: There’s a lot, and yeah, see that is one of the contentions that the defense has had, is that for years this DNA was not ran through any database, CODIS or other databases to try and determine as to whose identity that DNA belonged, ok? And there is other things there. There is a multitude of physical evidence that was found at that crime scene which hasn’t been, i.e. or a. either tested, or b. tested against any to see if there is any matches or database. There is certainly fingerprints, there is blood found at the scene that hasn’t been identified yet and that’s the reason I asked you, and I ask you again, if any of that belongs to you, then that would put you at the scene, would you agree?
Boney: That’s, that is correct. If, if something of mine was there at the scene that means that I would have been there.
Dunn: Right.
Boney: And that’s why, and that’s why I have no problem speaking with you, and that’s why I have no problem meeting with you. That’s why I have been forthright and honest with the prosecution team.
Dunn: So, and let me ask you this, in the next extension Charles, would be, if you were at the scene, then you would have been the individual committing that crime then?
Boney: That would be pretty obvious.

Did you shoot anybody?

Dunn: Sure, sure. And did you shoot anybody? Have you ever shot anybody in your life?
Boney: I have never, ever shot anyone.
Dunn: Did you shoot Kim Camm?
Boney: I have never shot at anyone. I have never shot anyone. I have never shot Kim Camm. I have never shot Brad, and the daughter…Jill?
Dunn: Mmm, hmm.
Boney: And I have never shot at anyone. I have never brandished my weapon, and shot, fired, you know, fired my weapon during the course of a robbery so all of those questions that you could ask me, the answer is no.
Dunn: Ok, ok. Let me ask you now a few clean up questions here. What kind of car did your mother have back in 2000?
Boney: Uh, I think it was a Lincoln Towncar.
Dunn: Do you recall what color?
Boney: It was white.
Dunn: Do you recall what year?
Boney: I would say the year 2000-2001.
Dunn: Ok, so fairly new?
Boney: Yeah.
Dunn: Ok. It’s the style would be with the…early?…I don’t what a Lincoln Towncar would look like in 2000. Anyway.
Boney: It was just a white, very nice Lincoln Towncar.
Dunn: It would have been four-door then?
Boney: Yeah.
Dunn: Ok, ok. White, white over white….on top or something?
Boney: And one of your next questions would be have you ever drive your mothers car, and the answer to that question is no. I haven’t.
Dunn: Yeah, that would be my next question.
Boney: Yeah, I have never drive, I have been asked that question as well. No, I have never driven my mother’s car.
Dunn: Ok, ok.
Boney: Nor would I have access to that car without just stealing her keys and the woman is alert at all times, and keep in mind, I had my own car…
Dunn: I, I, understand.
Boney: …so there was no need for me to take her car.
Dunn: And your car was running at all times that you had it? When did you get rid of that car?
Boney: Uh, 2003.
Dunn: And who did you sell it to, and how did you get rid of it?
Boney: Uh, the transmission went out on it so I just junked it.
Dunn: Whereabouts?
Boney: In Louisville.
Dunn: Do you know which ….which junkyard?
Boney: This, this guy that has his own little business on East Oak Street.
Dunn: What is his name?
Boney: I have no idea. I don’t remember.
Dunn: Whereabouts on East Oak?
Boney: Uh, he has like a little garage thing up there by the Dairy Mart on East Oak Street.
Dunn: You don’t remember his first name or anything about him?
Boney: No.
Dunn: White guy, Black guy…anything like that?
Boney: Yeah, he’s a white gentleman. Yeah, he’s Caucasian.
Dunn: About how old?
Boney: Younger than me, I would say that he is probably about 31, at the time.
Dunn: Ok., skinny, short, heavyset?
Boney: Thin built.
Dunn: Ok..
Boney: Thin build.
Dunn: Is he still there or do you know?
Boney: I, I, I would say he should be.
Dunn: Ok. Do you recall how much you got for the car?
Boney: $40.00. $40.00 with just junk in it. That’s it.
Dunn: O.k. Alright. And you have indicated before that you haven’t had, you had not been in possession of a gun since you got out of prison. Is that right?
Boney: That is correct.
Dunn: Ok, and you haven’t fired one.
Boney: I have never fired a weapon….
Dunn: Other than the M16.
Boney: M16 Alpha 1 rifle. M60 machine gun. 50 caliber weapon in the military.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: Uh, but as far as hand guns, specifically no.
Dunn: Ok. Have you ever represented to anybody that, that you’ve been a police officer?
Boney: Say that again.
Dunn: Have you ever represented to anybody that you’ve been a police officer? That you were a police officer?
Boney: That I was a police officer?
Dunn: Yes, identified yourself as a police officer?
Boney: In joking, or for real….serious?
Dunn: Yeah, anytime.
Boney: When uh, when I was at the Green Light, when I first met Amber she asked me are you a cop, I was like what if I am? She was like, you look like a cop. Are you ABC? I was like do I get a free drink? You know that type of thing, playing with her.
Dunn: How about unintelligible?
Boney: But she, but she knew. She knew that I wasn’t.
Dunn: You didn’t carry on that ruse for a day or week or so?
Boney: Nah, I mean, that’s that’s against the law. You know I mean.
Dunn: And you have never represented yourself to anybody else as a police officer?
Boney: Only in jest, I mean.
Dunn: Who would those have been?
Boney: I think the only person that I have ever said something like that to really was just Amber. I mean I am thinking.
Dunn: Have you ever shown anybody a badge?
Boney: I have never had a badge.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: I have never had a badge in my possession.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: I would have never had one of those.
Dunn: What is some of the things that you absolutely knew that I was going to ask you that I haven’t asked you.
Boney: You never have asked me…for sure…I mean. Well, I guess you did ask me, um, if I killed them. If I killed specifically the Camm family.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: And the answer to that question is no.
Dunn: Have you ever killed anybody?
Boney: No, I have not.
Dunn: Have you ever harmed anybody other than a spouse? And, either in prison and a girlfriend, and or a spouse?
Boney: I mean, I harmed a couple of people in prison.
Dunn: No, no, I’m saying with an exception of them.
Boney: Oh, with the exception of them?
Dunn: Um, hmm.
Boney: Other than my spouses? Any type of domestic violence, uhh, I have never been in trouble for anything else. And I am thinking hard. It’s not that hard to think. I know what I do. And I know what I have done.
Dunn: Yeah.
Dunn: If, if we had an expert polygraph examiner would you take a polygraph as to the questions, did you harm Kim, Brad or Jill Camm, would you, would you, it would be specific, were you ever in the Camm garage, would be one question, uh, did you ever shoot a firearm in the Camm garage, questions like that.
Boney: What I would do, I would do it, uh, in a stipulatory manner. Uh, meaning, I would take your polygraph without fail, which is something that even David Camm wouldn’t do.
Dunn: That is not true. He offered.
Boney: He offered to take a polygraph?
Dunn: He did.
Boney: So why wasn’t one administered to him, just out of curiosity?
Dunn: You got me. That was a decision well before I got involved in this. Yeah, but he did.
Boney: Ok. Well, here is what I am offering to bring light and peace of mind to Mr. Camm himself, you and everyone that you represent. If I could have a polygraph expert on the prosecutions side administer the results of what your polygraph personnel finds.
Dunn: By administer, do you mean review?
Boney: Yeah, review as we go along.
Dunn: Yeah, and I don’t know Charles if this is something that is in the immediate cards or not, but it is certainly something that I wanted to toss out there to you.
Boney: Well, I don’t see why it would be something that I wouldn’t do, because bottom line is either you are telling the truth or you are not.
Dunn: That is right.
Boney: So if there is a situation involving a polygraph as long as I have representation there that can administer and make sure that the polygraph isn’t in some way doctored with.
Dunn: No, no, And, you know, I don’t know if you have ever taken a polygraph before or not. The protocol is quite common. The protocol is a pre-polygraph session, uh, no, certainly no surprise questions, only really about two pertinent questions. Sometimes they get away with three, but rare is that. So that it would be like I say, uh, and the questions like, were you ever, did you fire a weapon in the Camm Garage? Did you shoot and kill Kim Camm? Stuff like that, very direct. It’s, you know, not of a belief or anything like that, but very direct and very specific questions of which they could go with before. Ok?
Boney: Well, in simple terms, I welcome your polygraph.
Dunn: Ok, good, good. Anything else that you could add that you think may be pertinent or germane to this?
Boney: There is things that both of you, both sides are working on, and what I am just going to do is let you guys do your work, and bottom line is, you know.
Dunn: Would your mother talk to me?
Boney: I don’t see why she wouldn’t.
Dunn: Ok, and I don’t think there is an issue there that you could give her a heads up and, and tell her that I, I gave you a business card did I not? Let, let me give you another one and if you could pass this on to her I would appreciate it.
Boney: Ok.
Dunn: I’m sure that she has already been interviewed, but…
Boney: Yeah.
Dunn: …but one of the things and it’s difficult, and it’s and I surely don’t want to step on the, the investigation that is ongoing now but at the same time, you know, you’ve been very open, you’ve been, obviously been very direct in your responses, and, and I appreciate that and I assume that they’re pretty consistent with what you have given me, and the prosecution in this, and I can’t see that that is going to be counterproductive to either side.
Boney: Everything that you have asked me that I have discussed with, especially this gentleman, he’s spent 22, about 22 hours with me. From 3:30 until about 1:30 the very next day, so you know…
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: …and he has taken notes and some of the questions that you asked are the same questions that he and another gentleman asked.
Dunn: Sure, oh, I’m sure, I’m sure.
Boney: And so, you know, it would be nothing for him to just be like, yeah that’s what he told us the last time.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: You know, that type of thing. So, the bottom line is, if you tell lies and everybody has lied, but in something like this, one lie ruins all of my credibility. Because all I have is my credibility right now.
Dunn: There you go.
Boney: The past is the past. What they want to do is measure what you are and who you are now.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: So, a lie ruins my credibility, and I can’t afford to do that.
Dunn: Yeah, and here again, you’re exactly right as to certainly what I am going to do. I am going to try and verify your representations, okay? We are going to try and see if people have seen you, and indeed there has been a flyer that has been produced to see if they have seen you around the church or in the neighborhood of the Camm residence. Stuff that you would expect to be done. Very routine stuff, uh, that you would expect to be done. I know that Camm’s attorney, Ms. Liell, she’s a very aggressive attorney, uh, I’m sure that she is going to be filing motions relative to you and relative to, yeah, and regarding Ms. Liell, I am sure she is going to be filing motions relative, you, relative to this case because she is a very aggressive defender of her client, as you can imagine, you know, so don’t be surprised by any of that stuff. I, you know, this, uh, part of this investigation as you might imagine is only at the initiating stage and there is a lot to run its course, so, and I foresee that there is a whole lot more stuff out there. Do you have any questions of me?
Boney: Not at this time, but I do know how to get in touch with you.
Dunn: Yeah, ok.
Boney: Just want to make something very clear, you know like I said, I met with you, only because I didn’t have anything to hide.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: It probably wouldn’t be in most people’s best interest to meet with the enemy. I mean technically, you’re, you’re not for me, you are not neutral, you are about David Camm. I wasn’t afraid to come here and be with, you know spend some time with you tonight.
Dunn: And I do appreciate that and hey that’s the reason you got the name Backbone. You are a stand up guy. I mean, you came in and you sat down. That is all that I can ask for.
Boney: All I can do is tell you that if I put my word on something that it has to be golden. I don’t put my word on just any and everything, you know what I am saying?
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: Like if I tell you, let me borrow $10.00 and I’ll pay you back tomorrow. It may very well be the very next day after that because my check was late or something…
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: …that type of thing. But if I tell you I’m definitely going to do something, I’m going to do it. And the one thing I’m going to tell you is that I plan on being here for the entire case, and I plan on being a free man after the case regardless of David Camm’s fate.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: You know, like I say, there’s, right now there’s some uncertainties. My name has been put out there and I have been exposed, you know for the first time in the last 15-20 hours or however long it has been. Twelve hours, I guess.
Dunn: Mmm, hmm.
Boney: All of this is new to the media world and they’re in a frenzy right now. They’re wanting to get the story.
Dunn: Oh, an that’s what I told you Charles, I mean,I didn’t have to tell you that, you know. This thing is just going to, you’re right, frenzy’s the word, that, that’s the best term that you could use. Yeah.
Boney: Yeah.
Dunn: And it, it’s only going to get more so.
Boney: Yeah.
Dunn: Yeah, but you know that. One, one other question that, that, did you ever know anybody to your knowledge that attended the church out there? Uh, names that were out there at the time were Bob and Mary Anne Lewis? Earlene and Red King? Hollis Carroll and his family? John Birkla and his wife Nancy Birkla? Anything like that?
Boney: No.
Dunn: Did you attend any, in the year 2000, did you ever attend any counseling sessions for alcoholics anonymous, narcotics anonymous, anything like that?
Boney: No.
Dunn: Ok, ok, and never been in that church before?
Boney: No.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: Where is that church located?
Dunn: It is at the intersection of Oakes and Old 64 which would be at the northwestern quadrant of that intersection in Georgetown.
Boney: No.
Dunn: Ok, ok, any other things that…

Denies ever played basketball with David Camm

Boney: And I have never played basketball, that was another question that was asked.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: I have never played basketball with David Camm.
Dunn: Ok.
Boney: And I think that I would remember, not so much him personally, but I would remember different types of people that I have ever played ball with.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: Most the guys that I play ball with were a lot younger. I think that gentleman is within two or three years of my age. He is 40 now or something like that.
Dunn: Right, yeah, he is about 4-5 years older than you.
Boney: Yeah.
Dunn: Where, where, where were you up there in Michigan City. What unit?
Boney: D Cell house.
Dunn: D?
Boney: Mm hmm.
Dunn: You were never over in the administrative unit in the PC?
Boney: That PC is for protective custody. That’s one of those things. With the exception of Mr. Camm, I won’t disrespect him like that, but usually it is just a bunch of snitches and child molesters and…
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: …people that they have to protect or else something might happen to them.
Dunn: Right, yeah.
Boney: And, of course, when you go to prison and you’re a former officer, you know, that’s one thing, that doesn’t necessarily mean that you will get your head split, but no one would trust you…
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: …and the types of crimes, and the other allegations, the molesting allegation, and things of that nature involving his little girl, things like that, they had to put him in administrative hold.
Dunn: Yeah. Any other things that you want to talk about or…
Boney: No, I am going to be spending some time with this gentleman now.
Dunn: Ok, great. Once again, I appreciate your time. I appreciate your straight forward answers and hey, I would request that you do get in touch with your mother and tell her that I’ll be calling her. I would like to talk with her. Very direct, and once again, no trick questions all I am doing is very straight up and saying, hey would you talk with me, and would you answer some questions?
Boney: Sure.
Dunn: Is that fair?
Boney: Yeah, did you want to meet with her, or did you want, did you want to, uh…
Dunn: I’d, I’d like to meet with her, yeah. I think that that is better that way, rather than talk on the telephone. And that way, I can, you know, show her my true identity and, you know, cause some people are reluctant and quite naturally so to speak on the phone.
Boney: Yeah.
Dunn: O.k. alright, and if you find Mala, I’m sure you are going to let these guys know but we would sure like to know too.
Boney: Well, the thing is my job is not to find anyone…
Dunn: Or, if you find out where she might be.
Boney: They’ll know, they’ll know before I will.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: Because once again, I’ve been instructed to let them do their job…
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: …and in doing so, I’m in, I’m in, I’m doing the right thing.
Dunn: Yeah. You don’t feel like your safety is an issue?
Boney: Well, you know, someone asked me that. Someone asked me if I needed police protection and things of that nature when I was at the news station and I said to myself, police protection? Well, let me think. How could someone protect a killer? That’s why David Camm was put on protective custody because he was believed to have done something. There is no evidence that says that I have done anything. There is no need for me to wonder about my life. I will just be straight, frank with you while we are still rolling on camera.
Dunn: Sure.
Boney: If someone decides that, I think darkie did it, you know. Someone, for whatever reason they want to play the part of, oh I’m going to be a vigilante, I’m just going to kill this so and so and such and such. My day is already marked. When the Lord takes me. That’s, that’s my day. Whether it is by the hands of someone else or if it’s dying by natural causes in the age of 75 or whatever in my bed. I can’t stop somebody from coming to do anything to me and I am not going to worry about it because once again, I wasn’t there. I didn’t do the killings, if it’s proven that someone of my caliber has done something like this at that point and time, and keep in mind, I think that I have said this once before, if I knew for a fact that I was guilty and that all this is coming at me, the media, questions and answers, and all of this kind of stuff, my mom, how people would feel about me, how they see me, I would have either killed myself or done something destructive by now.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: Honestly, the heat is on. I have never felt this pressure before. Never. Instead of being angry, or crazy or delirious. I have become aggressively strong, and now this is my chance to face retribution from the past. This is a challenge. This is perhaps God’s way of saying, you haven’t served me, you have not done the things that I require of you to do, I need you to get here, and in order for you to get here, you are all the way back here, I’m going to let these events take place. You are going to have to learn how to trust me, and then in trusting in Jesus and making my points known with the media and being honest with you, there are still test results that are still being analyzed, or whatever, when they see that I didn’t have anything to do with this, then the only thing that is left is, how did the sweatshirt get there, whose female unknown DNA is that, this, that and another, and then my past. Because really, really, honestly, it’s not even about whether Charles Boney did this or not, it is about Charles Boney’s past. Could his past have done this? Cause they are not talking about Charles Boney today, they are talking about Charles Boney 1989, 1992.
Dunn: Could Charles Boney have done this in ‘89 or ‘92?

Charles Boney back in 89 or 92 would have done it

Boney: If Charles Boney could have done it back then, then I think the Charles Boney back then would have done it.
Dunn: Really?
Boney: I’m not saying, yes that I would have, I’m just saying that I would have proven you. I would have had murders, I would have had, uh, I don’t know, my M.O. was robbery. It was get something for nothing.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: And, you know, I have a conscience. I can’t kill people and shit like that, that’s…
Dunn: You know my response to that would be, and clearly you don’t want to be a recidivist? Right? You don’t want to go back to prison, and that’s the reason that you work all of these hours, but a cynical response would be that, that’s the reason that the victims were all killed because they were witnesses and therefore they wouldn’t be able to identify a person to help put that person back in prison.
Boney: I see your point. That was also brought up from the point of the prosecution. The bottom line is, what, what you’re really saying is that in every case where I have been exposed there was someone that could talk about it.
Dunn: Yeah.
Boney: And in, in, of course, this case there was no one to point the finger at Charles Boney. That is your point.
Dunn: Sure. That is a point that any law enforcement officer would make.
Boney: Exactly.
Dunn: Sure.
Boney: But keep in mind, my point is really simple. I know what I am capable of and I know what I have done, and I have been honest with you guys.
Dunn: Sure.
Boney: As to what I have done, and I have owned up. I have never been to a jury trial. Why would I allow 12 people and that city to waste all that money on something that I know I did? That is my way of thinking. Just go ahead and say, hey, you know, judge I made a mistake, I, I honestly did those armed robbery. I did the taking of the shoes and stuff and I’m at your mercy. Whatever you are going to do to me, you know, I hope that you have mercy on me, or what have you. You know that, that, that’s…
Dunn: What did you ever did with the shoe that you stole, first of all.
Boney: They confiscated them.
Dunn: I mean from your apartment or what?
Boney: Specifically I kept , I think they confiscated about three, or two or three, whichever one. I don’t know.
Dunn: Yeah, yeah.
Boney: Two or three.
Dunn: Ok, anything else? I mean we are about ready to run out of tape here. Again thank you very much. You did exactly what you said you were going to do, and I couldn’t ask for anything else.
Boney: Everyone has asked me to keep my word and do what was asked of me and once again that is what I do.
Dunn: There you go.
Boney: That’s why my name is Backbone.
Dunn: There you go. Charles we’re out. Thank you.
Boney: Ok.


Boney Autobiography

File: BoneyAutoBiography ( Note: pages 3,4 and 5 appear to have been redacted )

Moreover, my mother may no longer be on the chessboard, but I have the enemy in check and the next move is mate! David Camm has to realise that the lies he has told and the deception he has created will backfire on his ass! As I am writing this chapter, I’m confident that I will be found not guilty and I will become the “thirteen million dollar man.”

You have to be careful what you ask for, because I can remember all too well what I had asked for during my resolution hour before the new year. I asked myself to commit to a weight loss regime and I had a goal to make more money than I ever had before. Imagine that! I’m in jail and I have lost forty pounds so far and this book is my meal ticket for the rest of my life.

I have nothing, except my name and that has been center of ridicule, critical review, and a rush to judgment. Once trial is over, what could I possibly do with my life? I have two options; I could go back to crime and be a real ruthless bastard, or I can market myself and be professional with all of my business decisions.

More quotes at :


The story of Donna Kopp Ennis posted recently on Facebook :

Many sleepless, haunting nights this week, but I have finally mustered the courage to talk about it. Charles Boney is an evil monster and there is no doubt in my mind that he killed the Camm family, and David Camm is innocent. I have a personal experience with Charles Boney that has haunted me for the last 20 years.

In October 1992, I was a college student at Indiana University in Bloomington and lived in the Varsity Villas apartment complex. One Thursday evening I was on my couch studying with my roommate and someone entered our apartment through the unlocked front door. At first, I didn’t even look up because one of our roommates had literally just left and I thought it was her coming back in to get something that she may have forgot. After a few moments, I felt like someone was staring at me and I turned around to see a black man who I did not know standing there with a duffle bag on his shoulder. I looked at him and said “Can I help you?” He pulled out a gun and said, “this is a robbery.” My roommate is saying nothing she is just staring in disbelief. At first, I thought this was a mean joke that our friends were playing on us. Then my roommate says to me, “Donna I can see the bullets in the gun.” He heard our other roommate on the phone upstairs so he ordered us to go upstairs at gun point. He was behind me as I was going up the stairs and I was so nervous I slipped and he poked the gun into my top of my neck/bottom of my head and started cussing. Reality set in at that moment.

Throughout the whole ordeal (which lasted I would say about 20 minutes), he called us “rich, white, honky b—–s” and told us he was going to kill us if we did anything stupid. I believed him. During this whole ordeal, our phone was ringing off the hook. Our neighbor in the apartment behind us had walked out on to his balcony and saw what was going on in our apartment and he called 911.

He took us out of our apartment to my roommate’s car and loaded us in the car as we were pulling out of the lot, the car was surrounded by police with guns drawn. I threw the door open and ran out of the car into the arms of a police officer. I owe my life to my neighbor who made that 911 call and the BPD who rescued us.

The one thing that has haunted me the most is the visit that we received from his parole officer sometime before his sentencing. At that meeting his Parole Officer told us, “Charles Boney is a career criminal. The only life he has ever known is prison and he will do whatever it takes to get back there,including murder.”

When I was notified that he had applied for a sentence modification in the spring of 2000, I flipped. He had only served 7 years of a 20 year sentence and we were told at the time of crime, that since he had violated his parole only 5 days after leaving prison that he would have to serve the rest of that sentence as well. I wrote a statement to Monroe County stating that I was adamantly against him being released and I wanted him to serve his full sentence. That statement also included the statement that his parole officer made to us back in 1992, and they still let him out!

I carry a tremendous guilt, feeling that I didn’t do enough to keep him in prison.

I am so sorry to the Camm and Renn families for everything that they have been through because of this monster. I wish people would take the time to really look at all of the evidence, and they will see that David Camm did not do this.

See also Charles Boney a Psychopath?

Charles Boney a Psychopath?

Or more scientifically, can he be diagnosed as ASPD ( Anti-Social Personality Disorder )


The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth edition (DSM-IV-TR), defines ASPD (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[8]
A) There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three or more of the following:

  1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
  2. deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
  3. impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
  4. irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
  5. reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
  6. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
  7. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another;

B) The individual is at least age 18 years.
C) There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years.
D) The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or a manic episode.

My amateur assessment, based on the evidence.

1. Yes, long criminal record.
2. Yes, see for example Boney autobiography
3. Yes, his crimes seem to be unplanned or poorly planned ( there is limited evidence of planning, use of “layers”, changing clothes ).
4. Yes : fights in prison, admitted physical abuse of partners ( domestic violence – Boney autobiography )
5. Yes ( his crimes are reckless in the extreme, see for example DKE )
6. Not so clear, perhaps indicated in Boney autobiography
7. Yes, see Charles Boney Interview with Gary Dunn and Boney autobiography

B) Yes.
C) Not sure, again see Boney autobiography
D) Yes.

See also

“The researchers interviewed 52 convicted murderers, 14 of them ranked as psychopaths according to the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised, a 20-item assessment, and asked them to describe their crimes in detail. Using computer programs to analyze what the men said, the researchers found that those with psychopathic scores showed a lack of emotion, spoke in terms of cause-and-effect when describing their crimes, and focused their attention on basic needs, such as food, drink and money.”

Autobiography sample

Moreover, my mother may no longer be on the chessboard, but I have the enemy in check and the next move is mate! David Camm has to realise that the lies he has told and the deception he has created will backfire on his ass! As I am writing this chapter, I’m confident that I will be found not guilty and I will become the “thirteen million dollar man.”

You have to be careful what you ask for, because I can remember all too well what I had asked for during my resolution hour before the new year. I asked myself to commit to a weight loss regime and I had a goal to make more money than I ever had before. Imagine that! I’m in jail and I have lost forty pounds so far and this book is my meal ticket for the rest of my life.

I have nothing, except my name and that has been center of ridicule, critical review, and a rush to judgment. Once trial is over, what could I possibly do with my life? I have two options; I could go back to crime and be a real ruthless bastard, or I can market myself and be professional with all of my business decisions.

From Boney autobiography

See also

David Camm – Excluded Evidence and Judge Dartt

I have been thinking about why judge Dartt is wrong about not allowing the testimony of Mike McDaniel.

It comes down to this : the jury are entitled to know how it was that David Camm was wrongly accused of murder, and how Charles Boney was protected from justice by Stan O. Faith. This is fundamental to understanding the case, and denying the jury this evidence has the potential to cause a miscarriage of justice.

Foot and panty sexual fetish evidence

It is also wrong to exclude evidence on Charles Boney’s sexual fetishes, because there is a clear link between his earlier behaviour (stealing shoes), his other violent crimes against women (hostage taking with a gun), the pornographic movies he watched in the weeks leading up to the murder, the fact that Kim Camm’s trousers were removed, the fact that she had changed her panties (she would not have worn black panties under the dress she wore that day), the fact that her shoe was placed on the roof of the Bronco, the fact that her foot was bruised, the fact that condoms were found, the fact that Charles Boney’s DNA was found in Kim Camm’s underwear. All these elements are consistent only with Charles Boney committing the crime.

The facts are very clear, how hiding relevant facts from the jury can possibly help ensure a just verdict is incomprehensible.

This shows the US justice system in a very poor light. I speak as an independent observer living in Gloucester, UK, with no political or other axe to grind.


According to this report the following exchange took place in court, Friday 4th October 2013:


“We are not going to re-try Trial One,” Judge Dartt said.

Kammen interjected.

“That’s enough, Mr. Kammen.” Judge Dartt said. “My patience is running thin.”


Judge Dartt is talking nonsense here. It is not a question of “retrying trial one”, it is a matter of putting relevant evidence and facts before the jury.

He should get off his high horse, and set about ensuring justice, before David Camm jumps out of the dock and gives him a lecture on patience.

The appeal ruling

From , Foot of Page 18:

“We begin our inquiry as to the admissibility of Boney’s criminal history and alleged foot and shoe fetish with Rule 404(b) and this Court’s decision in Garland v. State, 788 N.E.2d 425 (Ind. 2003). In Garland, the defendant contended that testimony about a third party’s prior bad acts was admissible for the same purpose advanced by the defendant here: to show the third party’s identity as the perpetrator of the charged crime and motive to commit the crime.”

( Note: the indefatigable Jane has copies of the referenced and another ruling here:… )

The appeal court has erred by not taking into account the CUMULATIVE effect of the evidence. It is undisputed that Boney was at the scene and his fingerprints were discovered on the Bronco.

The appeal court states “The prior crime of a third party must be “strikingly similar” to the current crime to be probative of identity.”

However, the IDENTIFICATION of Charles Boney is not at issue, since other evidence proves he was at the scene, what is at issue is whether he had a motive (based on his character) to remove Kim Camm’s trousers and place her shoe on the Bronco.

Thus the appeal court committed a horrible mistake here, this is an irrelevance.

The appeal court then goes on to tie itself in some logical knots… the overall effect is nonsense of the kind that can only be produced by judges. They have failed to consider ALL the evidence cumulatively.

“The defendant’s claim that Boney’s alleged foot and shoe fetish was the motive for these crimes fails because there is no evidence connecting these crimes to a foot or shoe fetish beyond the wife’s shoes being off and her feet being bruised. In these circumstances, the defendant’s contention is really that we should infer guilt on Boney’s part because of his sexual compulsion for feet and shoes.”

Well, given Boney’s undisputed presence at the crime scene, this is just ridiculous. And it is not simply Boney’s sexual compulsion, it is the evidence that he previously committed criminal acts related to this sexual compulsion. Moreover this statement is simply FALSE, the court has conveniently overlooked the shoe not only being off, but also placed on the roof of the Bronco. And what about the condoms?

Then the appeal court continues:

“This is the “forbidden inference” prohibited by Evidence Rule 404—that evidence of a person’s character or character trait, such as crimes, wrongs, or acts, cannot be used to show action in conformity with that character or character trait—and by this Court’s jurisprudence. Evidence regarding Boney’s criminal history and alleged foot and shoe fetish was properly excluded under the Rules of Evidence.”

There is no “forbidden inference” here, or evidence that is unduly prejudicial. It is circumstantial evidence very well connected to the crime, that allows the defense to paint a complete picture and present a complete defense ( a constitutional right, see foot of page ).

Additional facts

And what about the removal of Kim’s trousers?

What about Boney’s DNA in Kim’s underwear?

What about Boney’s cable bill (which links Boney’s multiple fetishes)?

Serial Killing 101

Panthose Passion 1

Foot Teasers 1

Panty Frenzy 2

High Rise

Foot Teasers 2

Foot Teasers 2

Against The Ropes

The inference of guilt is not based SOLELY on this evidence, but also on his undisputed presence at the crime, and there being no other plausible explanation for the otherwise puzzling facts observed at the scene of the crime.

Judge Dartt convicted

Judge Dartt has arrived at an indefensible position, and he certainly knows it. Any jury in full possession of the facts would surely convict him of presiding over an unfair trial in which relevant evidence has been hidden from the jury. The defense that he is “only following orders” fails, since further facts unknown to the appeal court have come to light.

Now Judge Dartt, the patience of independent observers of the trial over which you preside is wearing very thin indeed. You are desperately trying to defend earlier bad decisions to save face. But justice is not about saving face, it is about examining all of the evidence and reaching a just conclusion. You appear to be ignorant of this obvious truth.

You had better come clean, own up to the misdeeds of the appeal court and reverse your own misdeeds, or the full force of comment from independent observers will soon come to bear. Faith in the rule of law is based on trust that judges act fairly, you are undermining that trust, and by your acts are showing that you are not worthy of the position you hold.

See also

“In all criminal prosecutions the accused shall enjoy the right . . . to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor.” Sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution